Ohhhh, I think you might be right. She did mention in the podcast how she expected to only work part-time once she had kids. Girlfriend needs to look at actions and not listen to words, if that’s the case, because I do not think this guy is going to be up for that.
7 Likes
SNAPS dude. YES. All of this!! Every word.
5 Likes
I think he would agree to it and if she believes that arrangement is workable between them, they (and kids) are both going down on that ship.
3 Likes
I suspect the resentment he feels towards his family would eventually be directed towards her and the kids.
Huh, he just might be on the road to repeating his father’s history. Invisible scripts and all.
11 Likes
Maybe he’s really hot. All those supplements and presumably working out!
Haha my dad was dating this woman (the only person who had an anger problem bigger than his; he was cowed by her!) but apparently he found her so attractive that he kept getting sucked back in. My sister and I were like “she sounds horrible! She must be really hot!”.
8 Likes
Hahahahahaha, I love you.
4 Likes
Hm, I had a slightly different take on Andrew. His evasiveness sounded like a kid trying to not get in trouble. And every time Sarah came in it was to say what he was doing wrong/not doing. But it was like… He knew he was doing something wrong but didn’t know how to do it right?
I think Ramit did them a disservice by focusing on the emotional and not the nitty gritty numbers, because it sounded like between living with family and handing off his paycheck after college to living with Sarah, Andrew may not have ever managed his money independently on a full adult set of expenses (rent, groceries, etc). Most of what he talked about spending on was wants, not needs (both his spending and his dad’s), like his income is a child’s allowance.
I also got the sense that he was so guilt ridden over his debt that he’s going “scorched earth zero spending” but then flaming out because (a) zero spending is unsustainable and (b) the messaging about taking care of his family makes him feel emasculated so he gets Sarah gifts or dinners or outings or something. Even though what she really wants is for him to get his sh*t together and save 2k for a budget trip to Hawaii. (I took 1-2k trips to Mexico and India on like 30k, it’s not outside the realm of possibility, even while paying down his debt at a good clip.)
On Sarah’s part, I think she is enabling him in some way. Hard to speculate based on the interview but I think she expects him to have as much clarity on finances as she seems to, and they agree on a goal and she leaves him to it, but he just doesn’t have the emotional or financial skills to handle that responsibility. So she needs to either leave, or actually take the reins and walk him through it (and then leave if the man child doesn’t grow up…)
Also this didn’t fit anywhere, but I don’t think his retirement savings register as real money to him and that’s the only reason they are safe.
9 Likes
I think you’re onto something there. I also wished Ramit had dug into the numbers more, but that really doesn’t seem to be his goal with this podcast. Bummer
6 Likes
Yeah I know it’s not his style and while it works on some problems (you have millions and you can’t buy berries, don’t feel secure enough to take a vacation, etc) it really doesn’t get to the root of “what are you spending 75k minus taxes on AND running up 10-15k in debt per year if your partner is covering rent!?” and that’s the precursor to recognizing this is unnecessary and you will feel richer if you spend on meaningful things and have savings in the bank.
11 Likes
Ramit is now actively anti budget which seems… scammy
1 Like
Wait wut
2 Likes
He’s being kind of mean in the new one
Yeah I got baited because it’s about FIRE
5 Likes
Oh no.
1 Like
So frustrating because it’s a tool. If it doesn’t work for you, fine! But for some people it keeps them engaged and on track to meet goals and that is also fine! Sheesh.
4 Likes
I’m about to dig in y’all. And I’m on the good drugs today, so get ready for a lot of weird disjointed thoughts that only sorta hang together. Weeeeee!!!
Just say yes to drugs and live reacts to Episode 46
Ramit feels sorry for people who follow advice about cutting back costs on everything. Life becomes a race to see who can spend the least. That is his NIGHTMARE. Wow, he leads a very sheltered life, lol. Ramit is hosting a live event about living without a budget and it’s free.
Ad over, and we’re getting started. Sounds like we have two FIRE people this week. This should be good!
Carolyn and Gavin have 3 kids, make $130k net, and have half a million in investments. Carolyn is disengaged from family finances, she’s not into it. Gavin tries to set up money meetings but she’s like “nu uh”. They want to be able to talk about money, but Ramit says he spends most of this conversation “gathering clues”. They both used to be part of FIRE community, and they are obsessed with the mechanics of money. How it works not what it means.
Whew, ok we’re talking to Gavin about how trying to have a monthly money meeting went. He instantly says “horrid, like talking to a brick wall.” He started with spreadsheets, the first mistake, he says. Ramit laughs knowingly. I agree. Ladies can’t understand such things! Our brains don’t have enough folds. I personally can only understand money if it’s all explained to me in shoe shopping allegories! She was looking on her phone, not listening, etc. It wasn’t a conversation. She asked no questions and didn’t engage. Duhhhh, she was daydreaming about shoes Gavin!!! He gave up after 5 minutes, but she’s totally the only one who didn’t put forth enough effort.
Ramit wants to know how he felt after. “If we have another meeting it can’t go like that,” Gavin says. He thinks the problem was that he didn’t talk about things of interest to her or in a way that was appealing to her. LIKE SHOES. He went right into spreadsheets, spreadsheets are his baby, but that’s not that interesting to her. He’s proud of the spreadsheet. Ramit says he loves spreadsheets. Ramit confides that he spent YEARS trying to get his wife to be impressed by his spreadsheets 
I’m sorry but I have to stop here. I fucking love when men who talk about how they are so super “logic oriented” and so super smart also talk about how they do the exact same fucking thing over and over and over again even though it doesn’t work. It took YEARS for him to change tactics. Years. Much logic.
Ok, back to the show.
So after years and years of failure Ramit, king of logic, changed approaches. But not until he asked his wife if she understood it. Weirdly, she was not swayed.
Carolyn is up now. What was her experience of the money meeting, hahahaha. I am so right and it feels so good. She says, “I thought, oh god, here we go again.” So the illogical female is somehow able to see a pattern and then predict behavior? WITCH!!!
She says he likes to talk about money and she knew he was listening to Ramit’s podcast. She said there was no goal outlined for the meeting, which was the first problem she had. And she said she didn’t think he knew what to do either because he came in really hot and condescending. She also says she doesn’t think his spreadsheet is that easy to read. It doesn’t make sense to her. Ramit interrupts her, “how dare you insult this man’s spreadsheet.” It’s a joke. But not really. She says, “I also like spreadsheets. I have my own. But his is hard to read.”
She admits she shut down and says she felt like they both came in with preconceived ideas, and that he was annoyed with her right away. She knew she didn’t want to do it, and he knew that too. Ramit says this is insightful, to us, his hot AF listeners.
Carolyn says he has all the info, and he pulls it up and there was never any warmth. Ramit thinks that’s interesting. He’s giving Gavin a lot of props on his intention and having drinks and planning this, lol. Ramit wants to know what Gavin thinks.
Gavin thinks it’s spot on! He says he is definitely condescending and that he can be a bit of an asshole. Well. He said it not me. He’s ok with that, he says, then says he’s not ok with it but he is ok admitting it. Sheesh.
Ramit appreciates their honesty but doesn’t want to support self-talk that goes round and round and round. Carolyn says they’ve been married 10 years so she feels comfortable rolling her eyes and not listening to Gavin. Yikes. Ramit says the root is her discomfort with money. She needs confidence and competence, says Ramit.
Ramit is saying again, how much it meant and how great it was that Gavin tried to have the money conversation. Jesus, how much credit is this guy going to get for being an asshole, lol. Cue Gordon Ramsay shouting, “WHERE ARE YOUR STANDARDS?”
Gavin is talking: they moved back to the USA from Germany in 2015 (it was for work). He got into FIRE when they moved back. He started adding rigor to their finances. He started questioning small things and “laying it on a little bit thick”. Going through the grocery receipts, etc. Ramit says that’s his special hell. He wants to know how Gavin got from FIRE to Ramit. Gavin says he basically tried to convert everyone around him to FIRE, he laughs heartily! Gavin’s brother was like, enough, you are out of control. The brother kept suggesting Ramit’s book. He eventually did, and started listening to the podcast too. He realized there wasn’t as much joy in their money as there should be, and that you can be too absolutist.
Carolyn agrees there is nothing joyful she can think of in relation to money. Other than, like, going on a trip or something. She is dumbfounded at the realization that she doesn’t think of money as joyful, ever.
Ramit is now repeating to us exactly what was just said, and framing these as “clues”. I love that he thinks clues are people directly saying things to him. LOL. Ramit says if money isn’t joyful or is all about FIRE stuff it will never be fun to talk about money. He sees FIRE as very negative, all about escaping jobs people hate. People avoid talking about things they don’t like…he’s going on and on and on and it’s all boring and obvious.
Gavin is back, he says, “why wait to live bigger and better?” They are at a crossroads, he says, his job is changing. Carolyn is looking at going back to work. They might move. He says when they talk about big life decisions it helps to be in alignment. It makes it more present. IDK what that means. Ok he says the lack of alignment is obvious now that they are making all these decisions.
Ramit tells us their answers are generic and overly academic. Agreed. Ramit is bragging about not taking people’s answers at face value. HE says most people crave someone they trust who will ask pressing questions. Because most people don’t think deeply about these issues. INVISIBLE SCRIPTS. I haaaaate how he over-explains every single thing he does on every single episodeeeeee. LIKE I KNOW. IT LITERALLY JUST HAPPENED FIVE SECONDS AGO.
Ramit is asking them if their net worth, income, etc. is in an easy to access place. Carolyn says no. They tried a wallet app. Ramit interrupts her and says, “forget all that” and tells her to get a piece of paper and a CRAYON and write it that way if she needs to. ONLY IF THE CRAYON IS PINK!!! Otherwise she will cry, right? He says optimize for simplicity. Everything should fit on one page, he says after praising the dumb husband for having an unreadable spreadsheet. He says this is on Carolyn, lol, I’m not kidding. He says she has to figure out what Gavin should present on the document and she has to take the lead. Maybe she can hold his balls for him while he does it, and like, spoon drinkable yogurt into his mouth. Fucking hell.
She instantly answers, “starting with income then savings and investments and specifically where those investments are.” I swear she says it like this isn’t the first time she’s said this. Ramit interrupts again, he asks how specific- if she wants the logins. He’s asking her about password managers and what browser she uses. He’s being super aggressive, lol. She says she doesn’t think you should save financial passwords on your computer? That’s kinda weird. And Ramit goes, “oh ok, so they should be locked away somewhere where you can’t use them at all.” He is testy today.
Ramit is talking to us. He says she is lying to herself. They are so stuck in the weeds with mechanics they aren’t seeing the forest.
Ramit is like, “Carolyn, work with me here”. He’s asking what she needs in order to log into the accounts. She says she needs the passwords. He asks where she wants them to live. She says in her brain but she doesn’t think that’s possible. He asks again. She wants to write them down on a piece of paper. He says, “fine, do what you want, for everyone else listening use a password manager.” Ramit tells her he suspects if she writes these passwords down she won’t use them. And she agrees. He asks if they can just be honest.
Then Carolyn says, “what if he gets hit by a bus? then I’ll need the passwords!” THEN SHE LAUGHS. What the fuck, lol.
Gavin jumps in and says he’d be willing to look at password managers. Wait so he won’t use them either? These two are weird. He says, “it comes down to providing that security and providing that access to eliminate the perception of inequality in the finances”. I can’t stand people who talk like this, lol. To paraphrase an Abraham Lincoln quote: this man packs the most words into the fewest ideas of anyone I’ve known. Ramit is totally agreeing with him though. The crowd feigns shock, surprise.
Gavin thinks maybe the risk of using a password manager is “worth the return”. Ramit agrees, but doesn’t lay into him at all for his stupid previous beliefs from 5 SECONDS AGO. He did with Carolyn though. Can any of the lady brains out there see a PATTERN here? I know it’s hard. If you can’t see it maybe call your husband or father for some help. A mailman even. Literally, anyone with a penis will do. A male dog, in a pinch.
Ramit says it’s crazy we’re spending so long talking about passwords. On that we agree. He says they are both playing small by letting minor logistical details get in the way. Carolyn says she’s always thought of money as a mechanical thing and that the idea of putting so much emotion into it is very foreign to her.
Ramit’s asking us where they came up with this concept that money is mechanical? He insinuates it was Gavin’s obsession with FIRE but doesn’t name him or say it directly.
Ramit says his readers are so successful because emotion not mechanics.
Ramit is literally shouting at us. He is super emotional, lol. He screams “I DON’T WANT TO TALK ABOUT FUCKING PASSWORD MANAGERS OR YOUR STUPID APPS. THE BEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD DO NOT OBSESS OVER TOOLS. LOSERS ON SOCIAL MEDIA DO.” You’re being kind of a tool, Ramit. He’s raging about people posting videos on using apps but also “their simple morning routine of 39 COSMETICS” pick something simple and move on, he says. That’s…ironic. Ramit says we need to zoom out. The point is to live a rich life. IN THE EXACT WAY THAT RAMIT APPROVES OF.
“I can already think of 10 other things that the two of you could be talking about more joyfully,” obvious inner peace master Ramit says, his voice dripping with disdain. Carolyn says a house, since they have 3 kids. She’d like to be able to see the stars with a telescope. A dog. Being able to allow her kids to pursue whatever interests them, regardless of costs. Ramit says it sounds like a beautiful vision. He asks Gavin about his rich life. He says it mirrors Carolyns. They’d like to experience different cultures, not necessarily at the peak of luxury he says, but he could see upgrading from coach. Europe, huts in the Swiss Alps, hiking vacation. Bahhhhahahaha, he says, “establish productive children.” I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again, the way some of these people talk absolutely killllls me. I’m having college professor flashbacks from working in higher ed, lol.
It’s cool, I can make flashback jokes bc I have legit PTSD.
Gavin wants to buy a large but environmentally conscious property with “animals and food growing there.” Another homestead fantasy! Haha. It kind of reminds me of when I was on MMM in my early 20s and I’d read all these super rich people talking about how when they amassed even more money they’d like to have a fun job, like being a barista or working retail. While I was literally doing those jobs and having to pay my bills with them. Without sick leave or like, any benefits. Nothing screams, “I’ve never worked in the service industry” louder than the fantasy that it’s an easy just-for-fun job any dumb dumb can do. It’s kind of the same with this whole agriculture and animal husbandry fantasy. It’s almost like some white collar people don’t respect farmers or service workers as having actual skills. Skills they themselves, in fact, might not possess or be well suited to. Gross, lol.
Ramit loves it. He asks if they had fun talking about it. Gavin says, “LOVE IT.” He loved talking about it.
Ramit is talking at us again. He literally says, “let’s talk about what we talked about in the last 10 minutes”. NOOOO. I don’t wanna!!! It just happened! YOU CAN’T MAKE ME. It’s not in my rich life vision to have you repeat shit I already know, Ramit. How do you like them eggplants?
Ramit is telling Carolyn that on the one sheet they’re going to create, she needs to come up with a conscious spending plan with an amount that she has to spend every month on something joyful. Maybe she already does? She does have a spreadsheet already, remember that folks? The spreadsheet she has that Ramit didn’t ask another word about, didn’t ask what she was tracking or why or what she liked about it? Me too, sigh, me too. He’s like, “so Gavin, what’s a ballpark amount you could each get every month”. Hahaha, doesn’t even let her give it a try! Gavin says $1,000. Carolyn laughs and says that’s kind of a lot. Ramit even agrees that’s a lot for their income and asks Gavin what’s going on with that answer. No wonder Carolyn doesn’t want to listen to Gavin, lmao.
Ramit tells them to pick a lower number. She says $500. She says massages come to mind. Ramit asks if she tips, lol. She says yes. He says nothing worse than a cheap tipper. I can think of a couple of things. Gavin admits he’s a cheap tipper. RAmit is chewing him out. He says, “FIRE really fucked you up”. He asks how much Gavin tips. Gavin says its gotten a lot better. Ramit says, “ah shit.” He’s talking about how cheap people are always evasive about their cheapness. Ramit asks again how much Gavin tips, he says 15% but it depends on the service.
Fuck. This. Guy. This asshole who thinks he can grow his own food and slaughter his own meat and who makes six figures tips SERVICE WORKERS, i.e. the literal working poor, 15% ONLY IF they kiss his ass enough. I bet he crows all the time about how important narrowing the wealth gap is too and how sympathetic he is to the dirty and downtrodden.
At least Ramit is picking up on it. He tells us Gavin is probably lying. He rightly says if Gavin says 15% IF the service is good that it’s really way fucking less. Ramit says he once interviewed a waiter who explained tipping culture to him. That guy told Ramit (thank god it was a guy, that way Ramit was able to hear him!) that while most people think they tip in response to service most people are either generous tippers or cheap, across the board. I agree.
Ramit is like, Gavin you love spreadsheets and tracking things. And you love to optimize savings. And you mention cost savings strategies to Carolyn, is that right? I guess we’re moving onto the next topic. Gavin’s response is the mantra of mediocre men everywhere, “I’ve gotten a lot better about it in the last year.” Carolyn admits she will also drive around for a deal. Ramit is like why won’t you give me a straight answer. She says yes, Gavin does that. Ramit tells them the two of them are wealthy and asks what they are going to tip. Carolyn says she’s always tipped 20% but would be happy to go to 25%. He asks Gavin too because he wants them to have the same number. Gavin is silent. Then he says he can roll with 25%. Ramit points out that they can afford it and it’s meaningful to the person they tip.
Gavin is asking about tip jars and if he has to tip for stuff like that. THIS MOTHERFUCKER. Ramit is like YES and asks what other questions he has. Carolyn pipes in that even though she has told him this before Gavin doesn’t believe you have to tip people in hotels. Ramit instantly says, yes, you have to tip in hotels. You should tip the maids $20 a night. Ramit says he pulled a face like he was stubbing his toe. UGHHHHH. This dude sucks. Ramit is praising Gavin for writing this down. He appreciates how engaged Gavin is! He’s trying so hard guys! The praise men get for doing literally nothing is unreal. Ramit says it “means a lot” that he’s doing so much.
Now he’s saying Carolyn came to life with confidence about tipping. Not a compliment exactly, but kind of close. He says that tells him that money isn’t just dark for Carolyn. She says she really likes giving money away, like to NPR. Ramit says that although Gavin is usually “the leader when it comes to money” Carolyn is more comfortable with tipping. If leader is a synonym for jackass who won’t listen to his wife and steamrolls her with whatever his latest identity is, I agree.
Ramit says sometimes Gavin knows more and sometimes Carolyn knows more and that’s why they need to be a team. I agree! Gavin knew all about not using password managers, oh wait. I mean he was great at communicating…just not with other people. But he was able to come up with a reasonable budget for fun money for them to spend…no, wait, he couldn’t do that right… but Carolyn did. And he knew about tipping…nope, no that was Carolyn too. In his defense though, he found the FIRE movement that… Ramit hates…oh that’s not a good one either. But he’s the leader! Ok?! He is. Saying things makes them true.
Ramit wants to talk about their kids. Carolyn has the idea of getting their kids involved in charity decisions. Gavin tries to interrupt but Ramit stops him. Ramit says he wants Carolyn to think about who presents this message. He says probably Gavin is the one who the kids ask money questions to, but Carolyn could be the one to bring this up! Ramit’s idea is for Carolyn to do what she just said she wanted to do. He tells her this will be good for her to develop leadership. You know what makes leading hard? When no one will listen to a god damned word you say. He is now telling her how she can explain this to the kids…which she literally already said.
He asks what she thinks the kids will take away from this. She says that it’s fun to give away money and that this is part of responsibility. Ramit asks again WHO will be leading this conversation. Just in case she caught amnesia in the last 2 seconds, I guess. And she says “Mom” and Ramit says that’s a beautiful thing. Now he’s like, Gavin what were you going to say. He says Ramit covered it. Sitting around at the table, having a conversation as a family. He says every night at dinner they do “rose and thorn” where they say one rose and one thorn from the day. And they could do that with charity. Ramit loves that.
Ramit asks what Carolyn wants her daughter to see in her when it comes to money. She says being competent, calm, confident. Ramit interrupts and says, “let me translate that for you.” He says, “what can someone visibly see? you want her to see you logging into certain accounts and reviewing certain numbers- is that right?” Carolyn, who should win some kind of patience award or is maybe a masochist and super turned on right now (the only two explanations I can think of) says, “well, just not avoiding finances or being worried about it.” Just like part of regular life being taking care of money.
Ramit is talking at us again asking the same question he just asked Carolyn, what do we want our kids to learn about money. He says Carolyn made a common mistake in her answer by using descriptive terms instead of the exact terms Ramit would have used. I agree. I hear people make verbal mistakes all the time. Like when I went to Korea, everyone was talking a language I couldn’t understand! It was so crazy! I don’t know why all those people made the mistake of speaking so differently than I do. Super weird. Ramit is now explaining the exact things kids should see us doing for them to learn.
Ramit is like, “ok so she’ll see you logging into accounts, what else?” Carolyn says spending money and doing fun things. Finding joy in money.
Ramit says they need to:
- get a one sheet
- have a monthly money meeting and each week or month go through a chapter of his dumb book.
- make a conscious spending plan together. I’m sure Gavin will spontaneously be good at listening by then and Carolyn will totes be heard.
Ramit says they both have $250 a month for fun spending, and they need money for the kids. He’s talking about guilt-free spending. Carolyn interjects that she did this type of budgeting fun money for the kids and that it was instructive but that over time she no longer felt the need to do it on paper so directly. Ramit tells her now that she still has to do it and mentions some pie chart in his book about fun money, and then says, “in order to get to guilt free you have to go through the work”. But…she just said she was already there, lol.
Ramit says their history with FIRE has costs, despite them having killer fucking investments. It was all mechanics at the start of this conversation, says Ramit, before he saved the day. Music is swelling. I am. Dead inside.
Done.
17 Likes
SO EXCITE TO READ
2 Likes
I wish I could divorce other people’s spouses.
16 Likes
Carolyn sounds competent and Dude doesnt actually know what he’s doing or where everything is. I’m seriously concerned that they dont both have access to all of their investments. Maybe they’re all in his name. Ramit WTF why havent you reamed the dude for not having a 1 page summary of their finances and where everything is? Carolyn is in the dark and I BET she was in charge of groceries and food when Dude started going through receipts and telling her to spend less…
7 Likes
Did they touch on this again? Because I’m very confused why the husband doesn’t ask to go over her spreadsheet.
Ew. Fuck off Ramit.
7 Likes
Okay cool cool, so no they did not ever mention this again. God I hate this episode and its stupid patriarchal lens.
Ramit was a guest on another podcast I listen to, A Beautiful Mess, and even though it’s not a finance podcast he’s been on a few times because they LUUURRRRVVE him. At first they were praising his book, which is fine, I assume it has good practical info? But then they started praising the podcast and it was like I was in bizarro world.
9 Likes