this is such a good example about why Ramit is a bad interviewer. He is so caught up with knowing the answers and being the expert, he only listens for his trigger phrases so he can pipe in with his favourite narratives.
But he doesn’t listen to be surprised or learn something new about how humans navigate their relationship with money and each other.
Why would he assume this???
I don’t understand the whole fucking framing of this episode. They have high income, high savings, seemingly no debt and no out of control spending issues, or even too much trouble spending on stuff they find worthwhile. Both of them track finances. So how is Carolyn being painted as this incompent money bozo? Why are they even on the podcast? Because Gavin has a shitty spreadsheet and Ramit hates early retirement???
FUCK ALL OF THIS SHIT.
Ugh YES. I think you mentioned interviewing is/was part of your job? When I was a journalist I did a lot of interviews. One of my favorite parts of the job, actually, with actors and CEOs and small business owners and professors and scientists and all kinds of people. And what I learned is that while it’s smart to have a list of questions prepared and do research on the person in advance if you can, you have to be flexible. You have to ask clarifications and follow-ups, and when unexpected things arise you need to follow that lead if it’s relevant, and sometimes that means going off book a little.
I think part of his problem is that he’s a terrible listener who believes he’s a great listener. The other issue is that he is not curious about people, at all, because he thinks he has them figured out already. And the last problem is that he has a destination point in place before the conversation even begins. That’s like a recipe for a shit interview.
You seem kind of emotional. Is it that time of the month?
Seriously though, I also don’t get the problem. Like what functionally happens when one of them wants to spend on something. We never even heard about that! It sounds like Gavin was policing purchases like an a-hole and Carolyn basically got shouted into that so they both spent very little. And now Gavin is mad they aren’t spending more on things because he changed his money identity? But like…no one seems to be opposing him? Like is she stopping him from spending? Is he still stopping her from spending? Why can’t they buy a house? None of it makes sense.
BINGO. I have only had one month of interview training lol and this is soooooooo obvious
This is my take. They don’t earn enough to go wild on the spending, they’re just very comfortably well off.
Well yes, it IS that time of month. But I will still hate this episode in two weeks. And forever.
What I learnt from this is that I am going to read up on how to interview well because I would like better people skillz.
It’s been very interesting to learn about!! I think it’s going to make me have better conversations all around, at least that is my hope
Solidarity, sister. Both in my heart and my stupid ovaries.
Gavin & Carolyn: Ramit goes on a rant (echoing what everyone else has said)
Paraphrasing: “The FIRE movement is bad because you save all of this money and don’t spend any of it until you are 90.” Uh Ramit? Your ignorance is showing on this one. Maybe you should learn the basics of FIRE before you trash it.
I think Ramit never wants to retire.
Personally I would have liked to have heard more about their FIRE experience. Where did they start, did they have debt? What kind of changes did they make? How did they feel about it? I’m kind of wondering if this is someone on the MMM forums? But Ramit’s preconceived notions get in the way of any kind of dialogue like this.
I love (/s) how Ramit doesn’t want to talk about mechanics, and then goes on a while about mechanics. Umm, the dude who’s all about “You’ve got to automate your money” doesn’t want to talk about mechanics? I feel like Ramit’s approach IS mechanics.
Then he basically goes on a rant that boils down to, “Shut up and do it my way! Your concerns are stupid!”
Amateur tip: Try that in your marriage, what could possibly go wrong?
Ramit hates budgets, but then introduces a “Conscious Spending Plan.” Umm, this sounds like exactly like a budget to me.
But no, we’re not going to have a budget.
Somehow those “unsophisticated” people who buy trucks should just know they can’t afford a truck on their salary. But we’re not going to talk about or use any tools to figure that out. (different episode)
I’m guessing Ramit has never been poor a day in his whole life.
And, you’re going to pick a number that you have to spend on something that brings you joy every month.
Nope, nothing mechanical about that.
Yeah lots of sexism in this one. I noticed when he parroted back their rich life, it was Gavin’s rich life he reiterated, not the things that Carolyn had said.
This whole episode just felt like it meandered in the weeds, with no cohesion or much of a point. Just Ramit, lots of sexism, and one (largely unprovoked) rant after another. If this keeps up we’re going to have to find another podcast to follow I fear.
Wow. So much sexism in this one I can’t really see anything else. Disappointing!
lol it’s not a DIET, it’s a LIFESTYLE CHANGE
i have to also say here, though it is very minor compared to ramit being a sexist jag in this episode, that other people’s spreadsheets always suck and are impossible to pay attention to. i love MY spreadsheets and hate everyone else’s.
i feel like this is pretty much universal, right? spreadsheets and the ways we think about math and money that are embedded in them feel very personal to me.
Totally! And like, I spent 10 years professionally showing people numbers that came from spreadsheets in order to make decisions, but not a single person wanted to see my spreadsheets. It’s just not how anyone’s brain works.
I was thinking about the difference between a diet and a meal plan. A diet definitely has a sense of restriction about it.
I resist meal planning. For reasons I don’t understand, it’s very difficult for me to sit down and plan out what I’m going to have for various meals over the next few days to a week. I just won’t do it. So I generally plan absolutely nothing. The net result is a lot of chaos in my life, panic about what I’m going eat for this next meal I’ve not planned for, extra trips to the grocery store, running out of stuff or not having ingredients on hand for what I’m about to make, etc.
So while I kind of get that a budget can be like a diet, when Ramit says it, it sounds to me like he’s saying, “We’re going to go through life without any sort of meal plan whatsoever. But just think about what brings you joy to eat, and eat that. But we’re going to skip that part where you actually pick out recipes and make a grocery list to take to the store or schedule time to cook or do any cooking. Those are mechanics and I don’t want to focus on mechanics. Just picture what you’d like to eat and it will all just work itself out.” Maybe the dude eats at restaurants every night? Maybe his wife handles this?
That’s where I’m thinking, This guy has never been poor a day in his life. He’s never had to plan ahead and realize, “OK if I do this I won’t have money to pay rent or eat or whatever three days from now or be able to retire.” He paints himself as a money expert and yet he’s giving out advice that just isn’t going to work for the vast majority of people.
OK maybe I’m on a rant now.
Very true. Even past MJ’s spreadsheets can be shitty and overwhelming. Only whatever I have created or updated in the last two months is worth anything whatsoever.
@bernadette - that’s what appendices are for! Prove you did some actual math so people can ignore it.
Yeah, that’s for sure. The giveaway for me is how often he talks about his “modest” upbringing and cites as proof of his deprived childhood, the same two things every single time:
He doesn’t even seem to realize that plenty of families consider TJ Maxx fancy and overpriced, and don’t even go out to the types of restaurants that have appetizers…or in some cases any restaurants.
I totally agree on your take with his budget but don’t call it a budget. Thanks for sharing the follow up emails! Super interesting.
ETA: Oh I just thought of something else annoying. You know how he loves to ask “what does that get you?” when people do something he considers wrong? Why didn’t he ask the husband what he gets out of being a condescending prick? ALSO- he missed the fact that in this couple the husband was super emotional and reactionary with money and the wife was not, she was actually much more analytical. He didn’t even touch that. I mean think about it- the husband learns about FIRE for the first time and gets so bowled over by it that he becomes and evangelist overnight and imposes it on everyone around him. Then he reads Ramit’s book and does a full 180 on all his opinions and expects everyone else to be onboard instantly. The wife was the one who said she saw money as mechanical all the way through. She was super consistent.
I fully guffawed at this!
Bolding mine. Quotes are from the guy’s follow-up email, not JRA.
When you’re condescending about being less condescending 
I. Am. Dead.