I’m only on Episode 5!
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I’m going backwards.
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Ok NVM now that I’m 10 minutes into the episode I’m like “ok no Monique is just expecting him to pay for everything and feels like it’s unfair if she pays for anything.”
The soup thing??
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If anybody wants to go a bit meta on all of this, here is the link to the interview Ramit did with Tim Ferris when he launched the podcast, talking about some of the back story and bigger issues it raises:
This earlier interview where he talks about negotiating his pre-nup (among other things) is also really good:
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OK WAIT PABLO WAS UNEMPLOYED FOR TWO YEARS TO… HELP HER WITH HER HOMEWORK?? OR DATE HER??
WHAT IS GOING ON?
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I really like Jordan Harbinger too, he has such a wide variety of guests and I always learn something from it. I’m so glad he’s grown since the art of charm stuff.
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Thank you @iualia for starting this. I’m so excited to hear everyone’s thoughts.
@Greyweld that episode and many episodes I like how I think that one person in the relationship is the main cause of their issues but then about half way through a bomb shell drops and you realize that in fact both people have issues that they need to work through. You’re right on the expecting someone just out of high school to be on equal financial footing is not fair.
@AllHat I also love hearing the stories and identities that people have for themselves. Especially when people say “I’m not a person that does XXX”. I’ve been using that specific language as a trigger for me to think about stories that I tell myself and find out if I want to change any of them.
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Wow, reading these is making me rethink a lot of things.
I have issues about money
I totally see myself in some of these stories. I was the guy who would go to a nice restaurant but not order what I really wanted because that dish was more expensive, but it was what, $15-20 more? I’ve gotten over that but it took a lot of effort and intentional reframing.
Realistically (if I look at calculators), I should never have to worry about money again but I have a lot of fear. Marmalade said he’ll keep working until I’m mentally comfortable with our savings amount but I don’t want him to work at his crazy job more than he has to (often he’s up running simulations until 1 or 2am because the tests take so long and he wants to get them done overnight)! And in one of those articles, Ramit said once he flew to Australia to give a talk and got a cheap flight while cashing out his first class travel allowance, and his body was wrecked for three days. That’s literally what Marmalade has been saying. It’s worth an extra $6K to him to fly business class and not have to recover for a whole week each way flying to and from India. I find it a horrifying amount but when it’s for his health and he’s not a sturdy young person anymore…
I think I’ve been trained so long to be like “what could this money buy me instead?”. But if I have enough, does that really matter? What good is that money being hoarded in savings, if I have enough? I think I just need to truly internalize we have enough, and that’s really hard.
I’ve started some steps. In the last few years, I buy original art if I love it and it’s in the hundreds of dollars range. Depending on the piece, I might be willing to go up to thousands. We’ve been very generous to the friends who make a lot less (treating dinners or event tickets) for a while. I tip well, but I should actually tip more. What’s a few dollars to me compared to someone busting their butt doing food service? This year I gave a bunch of $20 gifts to people who wouldn’t expect it (my CrossFit coach, the receptionists at my naturopath’s office), and bought $30 worth of chocolates for the staff at the restaurant I frequent the most. I spend a crazy amount on my house and piano, but somehow that money seems to exist on a different plane, like it’s money that’s being invested into our future.
But why do I want the absolute best deals on stuff? I was literally waiting for these sports bras on Aerie to go down a few dollars (they went on sale, but then they went back up and were still cheap but not as cheap) and now they’re sold out in my size! I have two and really like them and shouldn’t have been so damn cheap about it! I think I need to be okay spending money and not feeling such regret if it goes down in price afterward. Sometimes it’ll happen and I can’t optimize everything. If I spend the money on things I’m definitely going to use, then it’s worth it.
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This podcast is already helping in our household. I was listening to the “My wife wants to divorce me because I’m cheap” two parter one (I think episodes 21 and 22?) while I was painting our porch and Mr. Meer happened to hear the husband confessing his fear about it basically snowballing - well what if we spend more on going out to eat and then it turns into $$$$ vacations and a $$$$$$ house and then we end up bankrupt? - and Mr. Meer was like “EXACTLY! That’s exactly it!” Then I told Mr. Meer that he’s gotten so much better than he used to be. He said that fear isn’t entirely gone but he did just buy a Switch just because, and he knew it was only X amount of working hours for him so why not. I’m actually really proud of him for that.
A couple minutes later he had gone back inside so he didn’t hear the Ramit walking the wife through saying (and the husband really hearing) we will not get to that point, I will not get to that point. But at least now if that fear every does rear it’s head with Mr. Meer at some point I have that phrase to go to.
I’ve also realized that at some nebulous time in the future when Mr. Meer retires before me, I’m going to have him take over doing our monthly book keeping. It will be good for him to be more hands on with it and see the numbers every month instead of the “I don’t want you to worry about it” approach I heard in another episode.
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Absolutely. “Analytical” is a story he tells himself but he gives f all weight to anyone’s feelings except his own. He’s actually spending emotionally and selfishly. He’s given his wife no autonomy and nitpicks the shit out of her decisions. I am impressed she’s only put divorce on the table now.
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I have articulated this exact fear to Mr Darling before. I’m still on episode 2 but I’m excited to listen to that one.
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Im reading at random. I will also be commenting at random. Catching up is not required!
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Realized that since I tend to put these on to listen to when I am falling asleep there are a bunch I haven’t really heard all the way through! So I’ll probably do some binging tonight.
Another thing I really like about Ramit’s style is how he traces a lot of these beliefs and behaviors back to family of origin stuff. I am a bit worried that the patterns we had during the pre-FIRE stage may have really contributed to DD’s anxiety around money and other things. I am trying to help her revise/rewrite some of that language now, ,but it is a bit alarming how fixated she is on certain narratives (worry about how much college is going to cost and that it will be a “waste” of money, or that she won’t be able to get a job and support herself).
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Episode 9:
Ramit: … one of the things I wanted to emphasize on our call today is nothing wrong with having emotions about money, and I’ve had to learn this. I grew up very utilitarian, practical.
Those words are my truth. I feel like learning how to spend money on things that my dad would have disapproved of, without guilt, is a life skill. Parents judging from beyond the grave is definitely a thing.
I was talking to Marmalade and I realized I’ve splurged on a vacation only once, a little. We stayed at a very nice place for a couple of nights as part of our honeymoon, but it was originally supposed to be a very expensive yurt-- they had a suite available and upgraded us. Was supposed to be $100 extra a night but I emailed them asking if they’d do less, and when we arrived they said they could do $50 extra a night. It was so nice, and so memorable! And then I got a $200 massage there but it was one of the best I’ve ever gotten. It was expensive, but so special and so memorable!
It was our 10th wedding anniversary this year and we didn’t go anywhere because of the pandemic. Maybe I can let loose a little and we can take a romantic trip when it’s safer, and hopefully I won’t keep thinking of what else I could buy for the cost of the hotel.
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Episode 16 is really good. More about how old identities can become useless when you’re literally a millionaire. I guess I do have some questions on how he sees money versus spending. I also think it’s interesting he never mentions charity at all? Or he hasn’t yet, I should say. Would that not be helpful? It seems like giving more could help give some people permission to spend more. There’s not a lot of mention of morality in general and I feel like that’s part of the obstacle when people say things like $15 berries are “outrageous” or “ridiculous”. I wish he dug a bit deeper on that stuff.
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I think he’s basically like “figure out what a Rich Life means to you, and work toward that”. So if someone’s Rich Life means being able to donate lots to charity, he is all for that. But I don’t think he directs anyone toward anything specific; he wants each person to figure out what they value so that they can use money as a tool for that.
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He does prompt them to discuss a lot of other things though. He prompts about spending specifically on grocery delivery, vacations, designer things, convenience, how you shouldn’t think about $4 problems, telling yourself you’re too important to worry about xyz, etc. I’m just curious if he has a specific reason for not going there, or if he thinks people would respond badly to it?
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I would also like more prompting there. His values showing through in his questions, perhaps? To me, I’d also like to see him bring into it a community value on why generic you shouldn’t worry so much about the cost of things at the high income levels - that spending is someone else’s income. As a higher or high income earner, generic you can afford to pay full price, or the higher cost of local made, etc.
I’m quite sure I’m not all the way there with my thoughts on this, but understanding my spending in the broader economy has helped some of my own hangups and stories-to-self around money and change them to ones I like better, and that do better for me. “Oh, I don’t have enough money for this! That’s ok, today I’m Frugal Me who gets a good deal on an item of equivalent or slightly lesser quality. Yesterday I was a fancy person at the farmers market and is putting money “back in the pockets of farmers and primary producers”.”
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I think it’s a weak point there, but in his book he talks about how it should be one of the goals of getting to a rich life to be able to give back and to scale it to your wealth. He also talks about having it be another way that money can help you live your values.
But it is not emphasized enough imo
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I’m guessing he’d go there if someone brings it up but it doesn’t seem relevant to just say it on the podcast if the interviewees don’t mention it first. It doesn’t resonate with everyone, and I suspect charity is something Ramit only did once he was super rich. In my family, charity was never a focus. My dad would donate $100 to Red Cross every year and I think he felt like it was a lot that he was donating anything at all, when it was hard earned money that could be going into savings. My family was very thrifty and the entire focus of my dad’s life was education and getting us into a good college (though my dad also viewed travel as worth it and we traveled Europe a bunch when we lived in North Africa-- he always viewed himself as a cultured Renaissance Man). We only ate out as a family during birthdays and it would be at Red Lobster, no appetizers, dessert was free because of birthday. My parents never talked about charity. I never donated money until I was a lot more comfortable with my finances, and Marmalade has been a huge influence. I donate but nowhere as generously as him. A lot is/was also “I struggle so much just to spend on myself and I’m just going to give it away?!”.
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