Its good to see Athletes talking out against the ban
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I am a flaming liberal but I am against biological males competing in women’s sports. I think because they are usually stronger it will ruin women’s sports.
So, against cis-men in women’s sports? Trans women aren’t biologically men.
Ponder and I were talking today about how he likes to play mixed gender teams but the main focus is always on “are these people at the same level as me?” Not “do they have the same gender or genitals?”
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Trans women benefit from muscle building, testosterone, etc from when they were men. I thought a different opinion might be warranted versus just parroting the majority opinion here. Anyway I won’t comment further because no one ever changes their mind in a online debate.
Oh right sorry yeah the conversation has moved on, we aren’t discussing whether they should be allowed to compete in the “womens” leagues in this thread anymore, we’re discussing the bans and problems with the bans. Maybe reading some of Anomalily’s links would be helpful for you.
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There is extensive research showing that this simply isn’t the case. When testosterone is removed, the benefits of testosterone go away.
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Trans women on estradiol rapidly lose muscle mass.
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That these conversations never seem to be about trans men shows to me the issue. I know several trans guys who want to do weight lifting competitions (as low level amateurs) but aren’t allowed bc T is doping. (Even tho they now have testosterone that is “in range” of cis men).
But the international and national conversation is on women.
Why?
Cause ppl think trans women are gross.
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I don’t need to be convinced about fairness or not of who gets to participate in womens sports. There is a lot wrong with sports overall and it’s not because of participation of trans athletes. I’m sure as hell not okay picking on the smallest segment of the overall athlete population to further marginalize. Just no.
Thank you for those who have shared resources. I admit I struggle with what to say when people spew out nonsense. Does anyone have some simple things to say? I want people to know I am not okay with bigotry without inviting debate. And I want to do so in a kind way, if at all possible. Inclusion is a force of goodness. It’s not a threat.
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also…“biological men” is no more determinable than anything else. Biological “sex” is based on a set of assigned characteristics at birth - there are not two sexes in the human species - there is a set of sex characteristics that we lump people into categories based on. There are not only two formations of chromosomes in humans. There are not only two forms of gonads. Having a certain set of sex characteristics does not make someone a man, any more than it makes them a woman.
Please note that most of the women that have been hurt by these regulations - chromosomal testing, testosterone measurements - have been assigned female at birth, and only found out they were intersex because of required sex testing. Many people you would call “biological women” are XY. There’s also “biological men” who are XXY - so which category are we putting them in?
Michael Phelps has genetic characteristics that make him an amazing swimmer, but they don’t fit into the category of secondary sex characteristics, so we’re okay with it? He’s double-jointed and his feet move 15 more degrees than the average feet so they act like flippers. He also produces half the lactic acid of his competitors due to a genetic variation. But we’re not kicking him out of competition for a biological advantage.
I’d also like to note that Lupron, a puberty blocker used by trans kids, is also used by the Russian figure skating sports program to delay puberty in cisgirls in order to keep them lean and able to jump quads (most girls stop being able to do quads after they get hips). For some instead of Lupron, they do it by restricting food intake- of girls who train 10 hours a day - leading to long term joint damage. But because these puberty blockers are used by cisgender girls… we haven’t regulated them.
I come back to if we want fairness in sports we should:
- equally fund professional leagues regardless of gender - i.e. why do nearly all the women who have won olympic medals that play in the NWSL have to work second jobs, often outside of soccer entirely, when the men’s players do not face the same struggles to make a living
- better reporting and investigation policies for abuse, particularly of minors, in sports, regardless of gender- please refer to the suit against the FBI that the most decorated gymnasts in the world have filed
- focus on better doping regulations in sports, particularly in countries where there is state-sponsored doping. Please see the 15-year-old girl who was doped by a state-sponsored sports program at the Olympics, despite the fact that Russia had already been caught in a massive doping scheme just a few years earlier
The idea that trans women, the most discriminated against gender of humans in the world, are desperately seeking to get into women’s sports, a field where funding, opportunities, media exposure are severely limited is not demonstrated by the data. There are very few trans athletes and there are no trans athletes in all elite sports. Most of these policies are being proposed for high school and middle school athletics - which just let the damn children play sports.
Enforcement of baseless gender-based requirements in sports is an issue. I wasn’t allowed to have black ice skates or wear pants (must wear a full skirt) due to “gender” regulations. I was relegated to the men’s locker room when I was a nationally competitive figure skater because of homophobia by the parents at my home rink due to fears I would “corrupt their daughters” when I was outed. I was a queer 13-year-old girl who just had a short haircut, and was outed against my choice. That kind of choice is looked down upon now, but they felt that was a “reasonable” compromise. It was not.
This is a bogeyman fueled by transphobia.
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YUP
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The sudden interest in fairness for women’s sports… when for years and years there has been no interest in equal pay for professional women, or safe training practices, or the countless allegations of abuse by coaches/doctors is just…well it’s transphobia. I cringe when I see people on social media suddenly outraged about how cis women must feel being beat by a trans woman (who has followed every guideline laid out by the sports governing body to compete) , when they have never uttered a word about the women hurt by Larry Nasar, or Alberto Salazar, or how professional women athletes still work multiple jobs on the side, etc…it’s just transphobia veiled as “concern.”
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Lia Thomas?
I think her success at the last summer Olympics is what led to the ban in swimming.
Link to article reporting the ban
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She is a NCAA athlete, not an elite athlete. She wasn’t in the olympics - but this means she won’t be able to do the olympic trials for 2024.
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I’m so glad to see so many smart and nuanced people here.
I hope the rest are taking notes.
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I am grateful this thread exists. I had a lot to learn on this subject to be a better ally.
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Thank you for the clarification.