I am not sure either. I think the OP has to set clear boundaries from the outset for a group journal or thread; but what about:
challenges
meme threads
current events (covid, election, etc)
questions
Tax questions
TV/TC
book groups
The issue for the big threads is do we want to put the burden of “modding” a group thread on the OP? That doesn’t seem fair to the OP, especially if it is a big topic. Perhaps which part of the forum a topic is in has an influence? I also don’t want to give OP all the power to shut down lines of conversation on group threads, leading us to have like 12 sub threads if people have difference of opinions. I was worried about this on the election thread and it didn’t happen But then it did on threads about other topics
As mentioned we don’t have a forum wide requirement for spoilers for any specific topics but we have said in the forum rules it is preferred with example spoilers, and generally people will spoiler topics or rapid gifs in a big thread, and almost always people will spoiler topics when asked. An issue we run into is that what needs to be spoilered is broad so we can’t make it a requirement to spoiler everything ever on every thread. The other issue is technical issues with spoilering - sometimes people will flag a their own post to ask me to spoiler it if they can’t due to phone/spoons/whatever.
I mean, yes. That’s where we are now, because some people either know rules that are not written down or are making up their own. So people comment in good faith and are shut down for violating a rule they didn’t know about and other people feel like they are being forced to moderate and advocate. So is this whole forum a safe space, and if so, for whom? And state that very clearly. Or are the public parts of the forum open for discussion and debate, and only the private parts of the forums considered safe space?
Who owns the thread is a great point.
In very few internet forums is the thread “owned” by the OP. Threads may take turns they do not expect.
If a thread is owned by the OP, and they can dictate the content, that should be made clear.
It seems like opinions of some posters are more important than others as far as what is allowed, and those people are not well marked as moderators, if they are.
I think one thing we’re experiencing is how differently people communicate, mentioned upthread. There are far more people having one on one convos with me in DMs, or with one another, about what unfolds in threads and how they see it, than on the threads. So it consistently feels like the loudest voices are the only opinions that matter in shaping the discussion.
Which we don’t want because that’s not a welcoming environment.
I think when threads are owned by the OP as far as boundary-setting and asks for spoilers, ability to set rules that are more extensive than than the forum as a whole* are important.
owned by OP clearly:
journals
money diaries (?)
What might be owned by OP
group journals
challenges
What might not be owned by OP
open threads about current events
topics debating different things
share your ___ threads (complaints, victories)
book clubs
I think it’s important that ANYONE can respond to someone and ask for spoilers to be added, or flag the post and have a mod do it. Content Warnings are one of those things that I think are just reasonable to ask generally. But…can you ask for a spoiler on someone else’s journal? And that being said, I stay off of food threads because I find pictures of meat very gross and sometimes upsetting. I don’t want to ask people to have to spoiler pictures of their own dinners on a food thread, it doesn’t feel like a reasonable thing to ask.
Sorry if this is too much processing for folks prior to setting “rules” - I want to get things right.
**to be clear, I don’t think any thread should allow transphobia, fatphobia, racism, anti-semitism, islamophobia, homophobia - BUT I know that there are always going to be rules needed outside of that - discussing weight loss might not be appropriate on certain group threads, but some poeple are definitely going to discuss their weight on their journal - some people never want therapy or medication suggested when they rant but sometimes people are looking for suggestions
It seems to me that a big part of the problem lately has been that some of this has been allowed a bit, especially as having to do with fatphobia as the main problematic area which makes sense because (to me, I might be wrong) fatphobia and the way we think about it has evolved a ton in not a huge amount of time and the lines aren’t very clear. I think this is where the original fatphobia thread was supposed to serve as an educational resource/discussion place, but ultimately broke down.
There seems to be a lot of asking for good intentions to be assumed when discussing the poster who posted something that is seen to cross a line, but not much of that same grace being extended to the person who points out the issue. Tone can be hard to read in both directions.
From what I saw, it also looked like people who need to take care of their own health problems are not allowed to talk about their own experiences. Because taking care of one’s own health is “healthism” which is fatphobia. I strongly disagree with that message, tone nonwithstanding. There were people who said “in this thread” which is understandable, but if the forum definition of fatphobia means certain people are not allowed to discuss their own personal health issues openly, it needs to be really explicitly stated. Like I do not consider that fatphobia, and I do consider being told you can’t talk about your personal experiences to be bullying. And people have been shut down outside of the fatphobia thread, so I would really like a clear rule on that.
So, y’all, there’s a lot of work around establishing standards to be done, but I have extremely limited capacity through the rest of the year, especially for doing the tough emotional work of coming up with good systems and guidelines and asking other people to give some time to help curate educational threads and become moderators.
How are we feeling about discussing this a bit for another 2 weeks before concrete changes are made? Is that not sustainable?
This is not an indication of not thinking these changes are not valuable, but rather it’s so important, I want to dedicate serious time to this, and make sure that we’re setting up systems with longevity, and I quite simply don’t have the ability to give it full focus immediately given my cat’s surgery today/my day job/general lack of spoons.
Everyone knows how packed your schedule is, and all of this will take time. I am happy to have this take the time needed for you to give it the attention you need, and for the process of developing this to take the time it needs.
I think @FIFoFum volunteered to draft some things (?). I am willing to help review or discuss ideas if that helps. But I also realize that sometimes it is faster and easier to just do it yourself.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot (even more) and I think there are inherent conflicts between the ideas and ideals of educational spaces and safe spaces. If the point of a thread is to educate on a topic or -phobia or -ism, then people need to be encouraged (not just allowed, encouraged) to ask the potentially dumb, potentially offensive questions. Otherwise you’re only going to attract people who are confident they won’t screw up.
I’ve seen multiple threads where I would not be surprised if someone thought sentiments expressed were transphobic or racist, and at least one where I thought that the sentiments expressed were transphobic. This entire thread was started because of some misandrist dogpiling (never thought I’d type that phrase non-sarcastically). I didn’t consider reporting it because it was clear that the person was asking questions in good faith and wanted to be educated. The ELI5 (explain like I’m 5) threads come to mind as place where people have said ignorant stuff but are obviously interested in learning.
There also seems to be an issue where people are trying to start discussion/education threads for people who have read and thought a lot about the topic, and then get questions from people who have just heard about it for the first time. Think the 401 discussion version vs the 101 lecture version of the topic. That seems derailing and dismissive, and involves a lot of emotional labor for people who wanted to have a more nuanced conversation with other people with a lot of background knowledge and end up fieldling a lot of “but I don’t get why X is bad.”
I started off this (very long now) post thinking that it would be a good idea to decide what kind of thread it is at post that at the top, but now I’m wondering how well that would work. Journals obviously should be safe spaces from whatever their owner wants, education and discussion threads can outline the potential contours of the discussion in the original post. But journals (and other threads) morph and change as our interests change over the year, and as we’re exposed to more info.
Oh I most definitely don’t feel qualified to draft anything by myself. I will need help for sure. Things that still need to be done:
actual language around code of conduct (I am weakest here)
how to sustainably have moderators (1 day a week per mod)
how to train mods to feel confident making calls
putting together resource list (2nd weakest here) around topics of: Fatphobia, Fragility, Transphobia, Sexism, Racism, Homophobia, Islamophobia. After the lists are put together, these will be locked topics as read-only, but you can submit a new link to the resource list.
Create guidelines for what is/isn’t spoilered or allowed in different parts of the forum
Create template for top of threads that says what people do/don’t want in the thread
Set up auto-emailers for new forum members that link them to resource lists and rules
The thing I need to work out is how to sustainably have moderators. I know moderator burnout is real, but I’d like to figure out how to make it work and rewarding without being overwhelming for mods. I know there will be people that cycle in and out. It’s a lot of emotional labor for people, and I want to make it clear that on X day they are mod, and then the rest of the days they are “off-duty” and the forums are a fun place.
Yup, this is 100% what I’ve seen happen. Like, we’ve had some pretty tough discussions on many threads. Sometimes people want to ask dumb questions, be pointed at resources, but the issue is that there kinda needs to be spaces where people that are super educated about a topic are able to have more nuanced discussions AND safe space. Some people are at a different point on their journey learning about it. It sucks all around to have constantly be educating people in ways that perpetuate harmful language/biases/etc AND it doesn’t feel good to be constantly accidentally misstepping.
(This is not something like posting a meme, this is more to do with the ins and outs of studies or bias in research, etc)
I’ve struggled even with what I felt was someone refusing to acknowledge the hand that systemic racism in their own journal when it came up that they were unaffected by the George Floyd protests. Should I push them? Is that my duty and the right space to do it? I came down on the - well, they’re Not doing That work right now, and while it is important for people with white privilege to do the work, I don’t need to FORCE the discussion in their journal.
I think the key is having enough mods, and having a space where mods can discuss together how to handle things and tag in/out if they can’t fulfill their duties on their usual day, or have two per day (more mods or just multiple “shifts”).
You put an awful lot of pressure on yourself - we are lucky you are so thoughtful about all of this (waves hands indicating the expanse of the universe).
Having a lexicon of terms and abbreviations would help me since I often have to look things up (like CW when I was used to the abbreviation TW).
No, I was saying in this new universe there can be a section, not that there is now. It was a hypothetical.
The categories are a mess…we have some categories that are way too big, and some that are too small. We need a librarian to help me organize stuff. (cough @RamonaQ cough @latitude)
Popping in because I was bat-signaled. This is an excellent to-do list. I remain willing to contribute with drafting of things (code of conduct, policies, etc.) & this is work that can be started even before dialing in the hardest of the specifics anyway (placeholder for fine-tuning).
Also very helpful is my fancy professional trick of copy/pasting/editing from places that already have very good codes of conduct or guidelines (because no one ever need reinvent wheels). E.g., “Make like [THIS] but [Cat-o-fied] for us.” (I am aware that others here are also trained in fields with this general skillset too!)
Could people gather resources and proposed policies in their area of expertise for the group to edit? This doesn’t have to be a huge job for Lily when lots of people here are smart and capable.
But then it did on threads about other topics