On the fringes of violation

Site Feedback
201

Hey Faux,

I want to echo that you are super welcome here. I think you stumbled into probably our thorniest topic by accident. Give the rest a chance and I really think you’ll find everyone here as delightful as I do.

Also, Madges post wasn’t directed at you, just expressing her feeling on the direction of the thread. One of the greatest qualities I see in the forum people here is the ability to say what they feel in a way that offers me a lot to reflect on. I’m sorry it felt personal, but it really wasn’t directed as an attack.

You seem really great. Please post memes and budgets and rambles about life and et cetera with us. We will cheer you on as the quirkiest, funniest (if I do say so myself) internet fam there is.

6 Likes
202

I love your positive attitude :slight_smile:

3 Likes
203

I think I started the cat thing. I’m sorry it led you down into a Big Thing. All the cool people around here have a story about the time they got scolded, so I hope you won’t let it get you down,

Agree x1000 that you stumbled into a weird thread where no one really knows what it’s supposed to be and everyone’s feelings are hurt. One of my MMM friends stumbled into it, too, and was like permanently scared away. I hope that you will try joining some less hard-mode threads!

3 Likes
204

That is very nice of you.

I’m a veteran of forums and have a very strong hide as many here know. I know some of you for 15+ years going back, so I’m not gonna get scared easily.

I will say though that too much tiptoeing around bores me. So I won’t leave out of hurt feelings or being scared off, but I might leave out of boredom.

Thanks you all for kind words.

5 Likes
205

I do actually want the forum to be a place where people consider the impact of their words on people with different life experiences and are open to learning new ways of saying things.

7 Likes
206

Yeah same. My ideal forum involves having a thick enough hide to be open and receptive to the fact that you’re gonna not know everything and sometimes others are gonna have to step in and share their knowledge/experience with you. 🤷

Having to challenge one’s own thinking is a good kind of discomfort. Having to watch what you say because you’re worried someone is going to be super mean about you just Doing Your Best is not the kind of discomfort I want in my life.

I think largely all the people I’ve interacted with on the forum want the former rather than the latter. But it involves people to be really honest with themselves and having a growth mindset.

A forum like that sounds pretty exciting to me personally.

12 Likes
207

Well said.

9 Likes
208

I want to third this. This is exactly right.

6 Likes
209

@nickybecky1 We haven’t set up educational topics yet, but this is a good place to air your concerns as its the working thread for getting that infrastructure up for the forums.

3 Likes
210

I could start a page with antisemitism resources pretty easily, but I don’t think I have the mental health bandwidth to manage a bunch of questions about “is this antisemtic?” or “why is this antisemetic”? or especially “but what about Isreal / Palestine?” I could see locking it, but then I don’t think that’s really as educational. I just worry it’s going to be more than I can handle moderating and I’m not sure how many people could/would be willing to help.

If there are some good thoughts on how to make a thread that’s educational but doesn’t eat all my soul and time, I’ll put it together today and it can live somewhere else until a section is added that groups all those types of posts together.

ETA: A draft is here: Draft Antisemitism Education Thread.

12 Likes
211

@nickybecky1 I was thinking I would make the ed threads locked/moderated rather than open discussion, so the top topic can be added to, and if people want to submit. would you feel okay with me making that thread mod-only? So you can add to/edit the top post, and people can submit resources, but there won’t be open discussion. I want to stay away from a back and forth that has made other threads toxic AF.

11 Likes
212

Yes! That sounds wonderful!

3 Likes
213

I’d argue that the root of this thread have more to do with familiarly allowing contempt.

There’s a reason this thread didn’t use the rituals of Yom Kippur as the baseline of humor, and that’s because ain’t hardly anyone in Christian dominated countries even know what Yom Kippur is, let along what happens inside the temple that day.

Christianity, on the other hand, is the dominant religion of the countries in which people on this thread are posting from. That dominance means that even the non-religious are exposed to the major stories of Christianity, and end up with a casual understanding of a whole slew of them - the Ten Commandments, the Red Seat, the birth in the manger, the death on the cross.

Just enough understanding of Catholicism to know how to use it for humor. Just enough understanding of Mormonism to make fun of their underwear. And unlike using Yom Kippur, there’s not hint of unsavory things like anti-semitism.

Zoom out, and what happened here is people outside a group using the core beliefs of those inside the group to provide humor. That is contempt. And this is either a community that allows certain kinds of contempt, or it is not.

This place dug into my soul. Or, maybe more fair, it was part of a whole paradigm that dug into my soul, and this place was where the people I knew did it to me personally. That sort of experience doesn’t go away quickly. In fact, I don’t think it ever goes away, it just gets absorbed, and changes the heart.

I don’t know what I want. Probably to go back in time, to a place where this hadn’t happened. But I suspect that my collateral damage is seen as…necessary somehow. Sad, perhaps, but also deserved. This place “wants me here,” but only as a face providing interest, not as a voice saying ‘hey, maybe not.”

4 Likes
214

I am really glad you’re back, Sam! I love reading all of your writing and have always felt a kinship with you as a person who follows faith (even when that faith doesn’t always fit so easily because of our identities). I also especially like that you are methodical in the way you process and convey information. It feels very C.S. Lewis and like a warm blanket, to me.

I really want to engage with the content of your posts, because I do have some thoughts on the acceptability of inviting humor towards faith in a way that is respectful. Before we do, though, I really want to make sure to address the greater context because I suspect, as you may be suggesting, that the context does add to why this thread set off some alarm bells for you.

This is a really big feeling that I think deserves to be acknowledged and seen; I have experienced it in my faith community and so have those close to me. Can we just take a step back and talk about that a bit?

I haven’t really been here very presently until recently and I would really love to hear more about it. I think the on the fringes thread is a really good place to put it because we’ve been hashing out all sorts there. For my part, I really want to commit to hearing you because I feel there is likely common ground we can find.

I am sorry for the way your feelings surrounding this place and perhaps the people in it have changed. I hope the shift of those feelings can be ushered into a deeper appreciation for each other, instead of a drifting away.

4 Likes
215

As a Catholic with caveats, the photo of the dog in vestments really pinged me in a way that didn’t feel good. It set off the same feeling as those jokey saint candles with celebrities on them or nun Halloween costumes do.

While Catholicism has been a world superpower, I think it’s power in most of our (forum folks) lives is minuscule. Islam has 1.8 billion adherents in the world, would y’all have been as comfortable with a thread coopting their religious rituals and sacraments, because confession is a holy sacrament and so elevated above mere ritual?

I think @PAWG has it right here and it is the very familiarity of Catholicism (pretty similar to mainstream Christianity in most of the countries represented here) that made that thread possible. Anti-catholic sentiment still very much exists and is often tied to anti immigrant sentiment. You think that you are punching up with these jokes, but usually it ends up punching down.

14 Likes
216

Something else to add, I hadn’t seen that thread before, but if i had I don’t know that I would have felt comfortable/supported in reporting it or sharing my feelings on the matter. Often those who point out these things do get some harsh or at least not as welcome treatment and I wouldn’t want to risk that in this community(which I appreciate and need so very much right now).

12 Likes
217

Thank you for being willing to post this. What you and Jack have identified is clearly a blind spot for me, and I appreciate both of you speaking up.

8 Likes
218

I didn’t respond in the confession thread, because I was uncomfortable with how it was addressed (accusing every reader of being complicit and comfortable with the appropriation of religious stuff). But now we’re on my thread, so I’ll get notifications regardless. I also note that the person pointing this out had every right to use the time to do so

Also, off topic, I’ve seen it mentioned that I started this to deal with misandry. Wrong. I started it because I was disgusted, horrified and deeply hurt by the rampant ableism.

Also off topic I’m in a horrible mood.

When humour is deployed in ways that mock one group that is not the one doing the mocking, it’s mean and a shit show and you shouldn’t do it. But, we do. I do. How do we not? I don’t know. But the answer is not to double down on either the person pointing it out or the perpetrator.

Personally I’m afraid that I’ll be run off the forum for liking yoga and vegetables on my own journal. We’re not getting kindness right.

17 Likes
219

I have said I am going to steer clear of the greater forum because I don’t need more emotional chaos in my life, but this feels like a good enough spot to get this off my chest and run.

Sometimes it feels like society is veering into the realm where all pain is bad and is to be avoided as quickly as possible with as little impact on the injured party as possible. And because pain can be caused in an infinite number of changing ways, there is the possibility of a never ending loop of increasing “safety” one can be trapped in. Combined with a loss of the art of a nuanced and balanced discussion because see step 1- all discomfort is bad.

I personally am sometimes uncomfortable with the use of the “straight white (man)” phrase. I am not going to get my pants in a twist over any of this because we are in a time of change and figuring things out, but I do personally want to come from a place of kindness and this is not a mindset or phrasing that I would use. Using personal unchangeable identity as character markers… However it is currently considered socially acceptable to everyone else in groups of people I generally find to be good folk.

It is particularly bothersome when I see comments like, “I never want to see another straight white man as president,” when I know that person has a white male child that this wording is being used in front of. Aka, I don’t think believe my kids should ever be in a position of power/influence because society will unavoidably warp them to be entitled dicks… Are we not trying to break that trend and raise people who should support others without regard of their race and orientation? Even if they are the proverbial straight white man? To see people as individuals? I get that there is an overarching culture that gives certain people more privilege than others, but I don’t thing denigrating others is a great way to move forward. If you could say, “gay black women” or, “oh, those Asian aunties,” in a similar phrase, then sure, go for it.

ETA: “Those entitled fucks” is a great gender neutral alternative! Poopy faces if there are more delicate ears around.

11 Likes
220

@anomalily was there a plan for implementing moderation beyond yourself/ taking the burden off you a bit?

4 Likes