I do actually want the forum to be a place where people consider the impact of their words on people with different life experiences and are open to learning new ways of saying things.
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Yeah same. My ideal forum involves having a thick enough hide to be open and receptive to the fact that you’re gonna not know everything and sometimes others are gonna have to step in and share their knowledge/experience with you. 🤷
Having to challenge one’s own thinking is a good kind of discomfort. Having to watch what you say because you’re worried someone is going to be super mean about you just Doing Your Best is not the kind of discomfort I want in my life.
I think largely all the people I’ve interacted with on the forum want the former rather than the latter. But it involves people to be really honest with themselves and having a growth mindset.
A forum like that sounds pretty exciting to me personally.
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Well said.
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I want to third this. This is exactly right.
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@nickybecky1 We haven’t set up educational topics yet, but this is a good place to air your concerns as its the working thread for getting that infrastructure up for the forums.
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I could start a page with antisemitism resources pretty easily, but I don’t think I have the mental health bandwidth to manage a bunch of questions about “is this antisemtic?” or “why is this antisemetic”? or especially “but what about Isreal / Palestine?” I could see locking it, but then I don’t think that’s really as educational. I just worry it’s going to be more than I can handle moderating and I’m not sure how many people could/would be willing to help.
If there are some good thoughts on how to make a thread that’s educational but doesn’t eat all my soul and time, I’ll put it together today and it can live somewhere else until a section is added that groups all those types of posts together.
ETA: A draft is here: Draft Antisemitism Education Thread.
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@nickybecky1 I was thinking I would make the ed threads locked/moderated rather than open discussion, so the top topic can be added to, and if people want to submit. would you feel okay with me making that thread mod-only? So you can add to/edit the top post, and people can submit resources, but there won’t be open discussion. I want to stay away from a back and forth that has made other threads toxic AF.
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Yes! That sounds wonderful!
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I’d argue that the root of this thread have more to do with familiarly allowing contempt.
There’s a reason this thread didn’t use the rituals of Yom Kippur as the baseline of humor, and that’s because ain’t hardly anyone in Christian dominated countries even know what Yom Kippur is, let along what happens inside the temple that day.
Christianity, on the other hand, is the dominant religion of the countries in which people on this thread are posting from. That dominance means that even the non-religious are exposed to the major stories of Christianity, and end up with a casual understanding of a whole slew of them - the Ten Commandments, the Red Seat, the birth in the manger, the death on the cross.
Just enough understanding of Catholicism to know how to use it for humor. Just enough understanding of Mormonism to make fun of their underwear. And unlike using Yom Kippur, there’s not hint of unsavory things like anti-semitism.
Zoom out, and what happened here is people outside a group using the core beliefs of those inside the group to provide humor. That is contempt. And this is either a community that allows certain kinds of contempt, or it is not.
This place dug into my soul. Or, maybe more fair, it was part of a whole paradigm that dug into my soul, and this place was where the people I knew did it to me personally. That sort of experience doesn’t go away quickly. In fact, I don’t think it ever goes away, it just gets absorbed, and changes the heart.
I don’t know what I want. Probably to go back in time, to a place where this hadn’t happened. But I suspect that my collateral damage is seen as…necessary somehow. Sad, perhaps, but also deserved. This place “wants me here,” but only as a face providing interest, not as a voice saying ‘hey, maybe not.”
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I am really glad you’re back, Sam! I love reading all of your writing and have always felt a kinship with you as a person who follows faith (even when that faith doesn’t always fit so easily because of our identities). I also especially like that you are methodical in the way you process and convey information. It feels very C.S. Lewis and like a warm blanket, to me.
I really want to engage with the content of your posts, because I do have some thoughts on the acceptability of inviting humor towards faith in a way that is respectful. Before we do, though, I really want to make sure to address the greater context because I suspect, as you may be suggesting, that the context does add to why this thread set off some alarm bells for you.
This is a really big feeling that I think deserves to be acknowledged and seen; I have experienced it in my faith community and so have those close to me. Can we just take a step back and talk about that a bit?
I haven’t really been here very presently until recently and I would really love to hear more about it. I think the on the fringes thread is a really good place to put it because we’ve been hashing out all sorts there. For my part, I really want to commit to hearing you because I feel there is likely common ground we can find.
I am sorry for the way your feelings surrounding this place and perhaps the people in it have changed. I hope the shift of those feelings can be ushered into a deeper appreciation for each other, instead of a drifting away.
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As a Catholic with caveats, the photo of the dog in vestments really pinged me in a way that didn’t feel good. It set off the same feeling as those jokey saint candles with celebrities on them or nun Halloween costumes do.
While Catholicism has been a world superpower, I think it’s power in most of our (forum folks) lives is minuscule. Islam has 1.8 billion adherents in the world, would y’all have been as comfortable with a thread coopting their religious rituals and sacraments, because confession is a holy sacrament and so elevated above mere ritual?
I think @PAWG has it right here and it is the very familiarity of Catholicism (pretty similar to mainstream Christianity in most of the countries represented here) that made that thread possible. Anti-catholic sentiment still very much exists and is often tied to anti immigrant sentiment. You think that you are punching up with these jokes, but usually it ends up punching down.
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Something else to add, I hadn’t seen that thread before, but if i had I don’t know that I would have felt comfortable/supported in reporting it or sharing my feelings on the matter. Often those who point out these things do get some harsh or at least not as welcome treatment and I wouldn’t want to risk that in this community(which I appreciate and need so very much right now).
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Thank you for being willing to post this. What you and Jack have identified is clearly a blind spot for me, and I appreciate both of you speaking up.
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I didn’t respond in the confession thread, because I was uncomfortable with how it was addressed (accusing every reader of being complicit and comfortable with the appropriation of religious stuff). But now we’re on my thread, so I’ll get notifications regardless. I also note that the person pointing this out had every right to use the time to do so
Also, off topic, I’ve seen it mentioned that I started this to deal with misandry. Wrong. I started it because I was disgusted, horrified and deeply hurt by the rampant ableism.
Also off topic I’m in a horrible mood.
When humour is deployed in ways that mock one group that is not the one doing the mocking, it’s mean and a shit show and you shouldn’t do it. But, we do. I do. How do we not? I don’t know. But the answer is not to double down on either the person pointing it out or the perpetrator.
Personally I’m afraid that I’ll be run off the forum for liking yoga and vegetables on my own journal. We’re not getting kindness right.
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I have said I am going to steer clear of the greater forum because I don’t need more emotional chaos in my life, but this feels like a good enough spot to get this off my chest and run.
Sometimes it feels like society is veering into the realm where all pain is bad and is to be avoided as quickly as possible with as little impact on the injured party as possible. And because pain can be caused in an infinite number of changing ways, there is the possibility of a never ending loop of increasing “safety” one can be trapped in. Combined with a loss of the art of a nuanced and balanced discussion because see step 1- all discomfort is bad.
I personally am sometimes uncomfortable with the use of the “straight white (man)” phrase. I am not going to get my pants in a twist over any of this because we are in a time of change and figuring things out, but I do personally want to come from a place of kindness and this is not a mindset or phrasing that I would use. Using personal unchangeable identity as character markers… However it is currently considered socially acceptable to everyone else in groups of people I generally find to be good folk.
It is particularly bothersome when I see comments like, “I never want to see another straight white man as president,” when I know that person has a white male child that this wording is being used in front of. Aka, I don’t think believe my kids should ever be in a position of power/influence because society will unavoidably warp them to be entitled dicks… Are we not trying to break that trend and raise people who should support others without regard of their race and orientation? Even if they are the proverbial straight white man? To see people as individuals? I get that there is an overarching culture that gives certain people more privilege than others, but I don’t thing denigrating others is a great way to move forward. If you could say, “gay black women” or, “oh, those Asian aunties,” in a similar phrase, then sure, go for it.
ETA: “Those entitled fucks” is a great gender neutral alternative! Poopy faces if there are more delicate ears around.
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@anomalily was there a plan for implementing moderation beyond yourself/ taking the burden off you a bit?
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I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. I didn’t see the posts/thread that caused this most recent flurry of posts so please keep that in mind, I’m not sure if what I am saying is relevant to that specifically. This is not meant to be a comment on the piling on aspect people have been mentioning either, so much as the initial reactions that I’ve noticed in myself and others sometimes when we learn something we did was less funny/more harmful than we had intended.
We have all (maybe a few of us haven’t but at least most) been swimming in the water of a deeply capitalistic, white supremacist, and colonial society for a long time. There are many things about this water that isn’t great for anyone and some of them are hard to see. But these things have been normal and accepted for so long that many of us, especially if we haven’t been hurt by them, have no idea that they’re hurting people. We are just minding our own business, going along making jokes that everyone we know has always thought were funny and whatnot. We aren’t trying to be hurtful but we are all products of a society that makes it almost impossible not to be hurtful.
And this society has also always protected the feelings of people in power who might be harming over the feelings/experience/needs of safety of people who are not in power. Because of this, we have become enormously sensitive about learning that we are harming people with our actions and words when we did not consciously intend that harm. George Bush famously said that the all time low point of his presidency was being called a racist by Kanye West. Since the forum seems to be primarily as far as I can tell, people who really want to be kind and do right to others, it makes sense that we would feel very hurt to discover that we are acting in a way that is harmful. It’s really hard to push past those feelings of hurt and realize that someone else is also hurt and they are inviting us to be the kindest people that we want to be by letting us know that what we said was problematic.
One of the last chapters of So you want to talk about Race is about how to react when someone tells you you are hurting them, because everyone who has been a part of this society has been touched by these toxic parts of it and are going to hurt someone as we stumble through. Next time I have my copy, I can write out some of her suggestions, but I don’t have access to it right now. Perhaps some of these steps would be helpful in shaping forum rules. I do recall though that it’s really important to listen, to apologize, and to change your actions, and also that if you really think about it and still think it’s an “agree to disagree” situation, that you don’t stick around and argue with the person about it, because we don’t need to invalidate someone’s pain just because we disagree.
I fully expect that some things I am doing, despite trying really hard and being really conscious about it, are harmful. I have been swimming in this water so long, it’s just hard to see. I also know I’ll feel like a jerk and be very sad when someone points this out to me because I really don’t want to be harmful to others and I’m trying my best. and yet, I’ll never stop doing that harmful thing if no one speaks up so I need to deal with my feelings about it.
I’ll remove this tag if you want because I know you said you were going to drop some knowledge and run but as an example I really appreciated @tardis’ comments about the straight white man phrase. I just yesterday morning sort of used that to describe a cartoon character to a friend and I realize that I meant “those entitled fucks” for sure. It wasn’t a comment made in front of my kiddo, but without that note about it, it could have been. I learned something for sure. I also learned a ton on the fatphobia thread, including some things that have really changed my life and mind, but unfortunately not fast enough to be able to engage in a really positive and helpful way as that thread became so difficult.
This turned into a novel, and so I appreciate it if you’ve read this far. I think this is a really special community and I hope we figure this out in a way that people don’t feel they’re being run off the forums for things and we can also still learn and grow.
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<3 I got that loud and clear and really appreciate your doing it. It’s the main reason I had to stop journaling and contributing here.
This resonated a lot:
I felt like I had to sanitize and caveat my life and perspective to the point that it was no longer a journal, out of fear of offending people with my point of view. To then also look around and see the ableist stuff that’s apparently totally ok here, including whipping out disability analogies to prove a point, just rubbed salt in the wound. The proliferation of call outs for issues deemed suitably sensitive then sort of compounded for me.
Separately, I would like to say that during the time I was most active here I began to buy into the idea that it’s “not on me” to educate people, and that it’s well within my rights to call people out, rudely if necessary. I did that a bit here and I have only regret about it as I don’t think it changed any minds or made me feel in the least bit better. This entire concept made me angrier, if anything, and I feel immense guilt for being so unkind in my corrections. I’d like to make this as a generalized apology if you were caught in my rage (I certainly owe one to you @tardis - Incidentally, I agree with everything you posted here. I also owe one to @norabird though I may have scared her off forever with my assholery) .
I have come to the conclusion that, unfair as it is, it IS on me to be patient and kind as I explain my perspective. Because the fact is, doing it the harsh way doesn’t work and only causes a huge opposing reaction, and people who are not part of an in-group are never going to be able to accurately speak on behalf of that group. It is on the person in the disenfranchised group by default, fair or not, it’s just part of it.
I also accept that not every community is for every person, and I think this forum is more of a safe space for certain populations (and not others) rather than an inclusive and intersectional space, which is totally valid. I continue to read here out of interest, but I rarely post for that reason, I’m not the target demographic here. It’s not just about discussing disability, it’s that sharing my point of view in general became difficult because some of my life experiences have led me to have views that are not the “right” views here. The thread about police and gay pride come to mind, as do several about gender, bodies, mental health, the covid thread, and some of the politics threads. I found myself more and more often writing out long replies, and then deleting them before posting.
I think inclusive spaces and safe spaces are by definition not the same thing. When there’s true diversity you’re going to come across some ideas that are unpleasant to you or that threaten how you see yourself. I think my real issue here was that OMD started as a place that professed inclusion, but then grew to function as a safe space for certain groups, provided the people within those groups had certain views. Like, I wouldn’t even mind the ableism here if nothing were censored and I could express myself freely, but the fact that some stuff is deemed Not Something To Joke About and other stuff is totally fair game make it…not my favorite vibe, I suppose.
<3 Much love though to everyone! And sorry again for my little spate as an angry person here. For the curious: The answer is yes. My cat is still ridiculously fluffy.
Edit: clarity/spacing
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I like the distinction of inclusive vs. safe. I would like to be part of a community that makes me feel heard and can prioritize listening over offering complete safety.
I so agree with this and love the way you stated it. Thank you.
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That’s a very interesting observation. I have to think about this. And what the difference really is and how those look in action.
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