The podcast is first names only, but it has to be pretty obvious to those who know them who they are (maybe the podcast names are aliases?). It was pretty yikes to me that the guy openly called his ex wife an idiot. That’s just not a thing I would say on tape, especially about someone I’d had children with. Maybe she truly is, but also… dude you married her, what does that say about you.
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i felt this way, too. and then my husband became unemployed and even though i budgeted money for him to spend, he instead ran up a big credit card debt, secretly.
it almost ended our marriage, but in therapy we have both come to understand ourselves and each other a bit better. for him, his family was very controlling when he was a kid and that makes it hard for him to be honest and forthright about stuff. sharing money in one big bank account activated all that in him.
he also has very little retirement savings, while i have amassed a tidy amount. when he sprang this debt on me, the first thing that came out of my mouth was “i am never going to be able to retire, am i?”
so now, after separating and coming back together, we have separate money. he pays me 1/2 the bills, and we each buy groceries and other stuff, and we track it and settle up at the end of the month. he shows me his mint summary each month, and i show him mine.
it’s not mathematically optimal, but it keeps our brains in better places. when/if our life circumstances change, we will adjust, with a lot of communication that we didn’t have last time. there’s a real tangible sense of teamwork in our lives – but this setup helps us avoid tripping each other’s wires.
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That makes sense! A lot of the reasoning I’ve heard for keeping things separate is along those lines, or like @Meowmalade said people who have witnessed similar things with their parents. I’ve definitely received concern/fear on my behalf on the rare occasions I’ve discussed it IRL, and in regard to not working too (or “not contributing”/“living off” someone).
Another common reason I’ve heard is that it’s to avoid conflict because each person disagrees with how the other spends money, or they feel like they’d be judged for how they spend their fun money, or they’re both uncomfortable talking about money, or one person has a lot of wealth and they want to protect that, or both people want to maintain a feeling of being independent, or one person has a ton of debt and the other doesn’t, etc. I guess it’s not that I literally don’t understand the possible reasoning behind it, more that I see it differently even with those considerations. I was probably just being hyperbolic and flip out of excitement, lol, in person I’m very agreeable and would never be so direct!
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But being flip and direct generating some cool discussions!
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Hahaha! Well that’s what you get when you mix my fast typing fingers with pain killers and a personal finance podcast 
just pure unadulterated judgyness, lol.
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lol it’s ok, i’m not offended! just wanted to share an instance where keeping things more separate is the way that works best so far. what was that quote about democracy? that it’s not ideal, just better than the other available options? that’s where we are at
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Oof, yeah. I’ve heard enough stories like yours that it’s really scary! It’s hard to predict how other people (or even ourselves) will act under extreme stress. That sounds really rough.
For poly reasons I keep my finances separate from my partner’s but I think that yours/mine/ours would be my preference anyway. It sidesteps a lot of emotional stress and in practice we plan things jointly anyway.
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Our household started yours/mine/ours with “ours” being the smallest bucket when we first moved in together. I was a bit controlling and wanted to optimise everything and Ponder was quite reasonable about “hey, we’ve never had Real Money to spend before, slow down!” We moved in together when I finished uni and he was still studying and working part time, though. Now we have some parts in our own names but in reality I manage it and we just check in before big purchases.
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Summary
I also think this couple is not going to make it. I’d like to hear from them in a year, but I suspect it will either be separate episodes or only Lindsey.
My sense after listening to both episodes is that, now that Lindsey is now making more money, that’s making her feel more empowered and she wants to get better at managing money. She’s the driving force behind them coming on the show. John on the other hand is very stuck, and any discussion of money brings up a lot of negative emotions for him and he’s having a really hard time. I now understand why in the last episode she was quite focused on “It’s my mortgage, I pay the mortgage.” I think that she wants to be certain that she keeps the house if / when they divorce. Ramit did try to impress upon John that he was not contributing to their housing expenses at all and I’m not sure it registered.
I think Ramit also sees where this is going, both from his segment on how he didn’t think he reached John, and the discussion near the end about working with a lawyer to establish a post-nup. He wants to protect Lindsey from being saddled with his debt in the event of divorce. She could still be responsible for half of the credit card debt that he accumulates during the marriage however.
John’s paying $1100 per month in child support. They have five kids between them, though it wasn’t clear to me how many came into the marriage with each parent. I wondered if Lindsey is receiving child support and how much time John’s kids spend with them.
Going over the numbers was interesting. By the time John pays his child support, his truck lease, PSLF payments and something towards his credit card debt, it’s not clear that there is much left over at all. Everything I know about PSLF I learned on this site. Is it rare that one actually receives the loan forgiveness? I think he is a teacher; I’m not sure how much he could earn in a different job. But if that is a good summary of his financial situation, I’m not sure how he would support himself if they were to divorce.
Even if he can reduce his car expenses (I’m not sure he’s willing to face reality that much), his financial picture is pretty bleak, and will continue to be until either he gets PSLF or the kids grow up and the child support bill goes away.
I wish them luck.
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I was glad he went over the numbers too!
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I was kind of surprised a second job wasn’t suggested since he’s a teacher (i.e. never has to go into work on weekends/nights). I know quite a few teachers who would waitress on the weekends. If you are decent enough to wait somewhere midrange you can easily make like $300 a night, maybe $200 for a guy if the place doesn’t pool tips (female servers usually make more). He could be bringing in like $800 a month extra in just two nights a week of 5-6 hour shifts! I mean, if he’s that upset about the idea of someone else paying off his loans, that’s certainly an option! Or, like you said, getting a higher paying job is an option. My little alarms always go off a bit when someone is so adamant about what they want yet they aren’t doing the most basic first steps to get it, whether it’s reading a personal finance book, going to a group meeting, looking into jobs, therapy, etc. It’s like he isn’t upset enough to actually be spurred to action.
Maybe you’re right that Ramit could tell they were headed for divorce though! That would make his insistence than she not pay off the husband’s debt make a lot more sense. I mean why pay off so much money for someone who you won’t even be with in a couple of years. I didn’t think of that! I also got the sense Ramit was lukewarm by the end, like I think he knew he didn’t get through to that guy. I’m wishing for a one year update!
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Summary
I didn’t even think about John getting a second job during the school year, but you’re right, it would be a good way for him to earn some much-needed cash. $800 a month would be a huge improvement in his cash flow.
I also wondered about his plan to work during the summers. Five kids - who provides child care? If they have to cover child care costs, I think that would more than wipe out what he earns in a seasonal job.
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After reading Part 2 I think you’re spot on. I think Ramit is coaching Lindsey on how to protect herself in case of divorce.
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So, this isn’t a podcast episode, but it’s a conversation that I could totally see happening in this podcast.
Essentially, wife and husband (common law) have separate finances, she wants to have them split the financial loss of her having a kid and going on mat leave. He thinks it’s cold and overly transactional.
Thoughts?
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Ooo, great find! Judgy like Judge Judy thoughts I had while reading this:
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I don’t get why the guy is so turned off. Their entire relationship has already been like this with splitting costs of everything for fairness, so why would he not compensate her in this way? I’d argue he’s actually being undercharged since she isn’t seeking compensation for the physical difficulties associated with pregnancy, like he can’t take on 50% of morning sickness or a sore lower back.
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I think it’s hilarious that he just now thinks things are transactional, you know, now that a big sacrifice is required on his end, lol. But he’s also totally ok with her making a big sacrifice in order to have their child and thinks she should take that in stride because female, I guess? This is part of why I don’t think separate stuff protects women or helps avoid conflict all that much, because if you’re married you aren’t actually separate when it comes down to it. You’re either life partners or not, and if you’re life partners it’s all about we, but he still thinks like “me” vs. “her”.
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I think she is being unrealistic if she expects this guy to psychologically adapt to this kind of plan. IMO what she actually wants is all in co-operation and the assurances that this guy will take care of her and their child with an adequate amount of physical daily effort and financial effort. She wants assurance of generosity, which she hasn’t seen from him before (I assume, since she doesn’t trust it will happen naturally) because they have kept things separate. I find that to be a reasonable want in general, but I think she’s unrealistic about him providing those things since from the very beginning she sought out the kind of guy who wants to split everything and keep his stuff separate from her stuff, etc. I think part of her knows this, and that’s why she also wants stuff about housework in writing, because she doesn’t think he’ll do it otherwise. She thinks she’ll need a way to hold him to his word and I think he’s feeling icky because he realizes in a way, that this is an admission that she does not trust him. He’s never shown her that kind of sacrifice so she wants it guaranteed in writing. I think she’s terrified of having a kid with this guy, and I don’t think her feelings are unfounded.
That’s my two cents!
There are also detailed notes about how she wants to keep housework split, with plans to start saving for both childcare and additional housekeeper expenses for at least the first four years. I kid you not, it’s a 16 page ring binder that she handed me with detailed notes, some explanations, and lists of expenses.
But the immediate and essential element here is that, she wants me to pay her $50,000 - $100,000 to compensate for the loss of her salary for 6-12 months as a result of her having our child.
I really do not know how to process this. My first thought is shock, because, despite our salaries, $50k-$100k is a lot to demand. The idea of a payment plan to have a child is just gross. And many couples manage to do this without paying their wives to have children. But then, I suppose most couples are married legally and a loss to one person’s income is a loss to everyone. So in our situation, it makes logical sense, but there’s something so transactional about it that puts a bad taste in my mouth.
I didn’t fight it or argue, and she’s basically allowing me to think about it, but says if having kids is something we’re going to do, she wants to write up an agreement and go to a lawyer (splitting the cost of that is ALSO in the binder).
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Without reading the link, my first thought is “Oh cool, so you’re going to cover everything dude? Especially since you won’t be the one carrying the child?”
Okay now I read it - so she might not actually be pregnant but she’s planning for the future. He keeps saying how it’s so cold and transactional, but doesn’t have any other ideas and never mind that they’ve been 50/50 for the past six years. He seems to agree that she shouldn’t take the salary loss by herself but can’t make that next step of him supporting her. Like, if he ignores it the problem will magically go away?
@AllHat I wholeheartedly agree with your number three. I think she wants kids, she’s trying to figure out if this is the guy she can have kids with and suspects the answer is no. He doesn’t seem generous.
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I actually think she’s being pretty generous and reasonable. Like, if he wanted a kid and didn’t have a wife, he would be paying a gestational carrier, hospital bills, childcare, cleaning if he didn’t do it all himself, etc etc. What she’s asking for is I think for the financial losses to be split as equally as it would be with shared finances, with the extra cost of a lawyer thrown in because, well, having a kid outside of marriage and shared finances can get legally complicated, even if things don’t go south.
It’s not him paying her to have a baby, it’s her making sure that she doesn’t have full financial responsibility for what is presumably their child which they both want and agreed to have.
And if they aren’t married she could (I think) go the “child support” route which would be WAY colder.
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100% agree. And the fact that his gut response is to see it as her charging him (for something that really should be his responsibility anyway) says a lot. That reaction explains why she also wants legal documents delineating household tasks IMO.
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So, let’s say she goes back to work after six months with the baby, and he takes the next six months as an extended paternity leave to care for their baby. How much would she be willing to compensate him?
The tax implications are interesting, to say the least. Is she expecting him to pay the taxes on that sum of money, or does she want $50K less that taxes he’s paid on it? Is he supposed to issue her a 1099-NEC? I don’t see a way for him to deduct what he pays her from his AGI.
Per my tax training, they have presented themselves as married, so in the eyes of the IRS they are married and could file MFJ. However if they do that, they WILL need a divorce decree to file as single again (the IRS requires no documentation to file MFJ).
Were there any considerations about how to pay the child’s expenses going forward? What about expenses that one parent doesn’t think are necessary or supports? How do they work out custody if they split up? There’s got to be precedent for that.
What if the child has special needs and she never goes back to work?
What if one of them has to turn down a position that requires relocation so they can stay together for the child? Is that person compensated?
(Anybody remember Eric222 from the other site?)
This is only the tip of the iceberg.
ETA: $50K will trip the gift tax. They could be taxed on it twice.
I wonder if she’s figured out who get to claim head of Household.
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I got the impression wading into the comments that in the jurisdiction they were in (unsure if US?) Their relationship doesn’t count as common law, but the guy is acting as if it is.
I wonder if it would be more reasonable to instead of giving one person money from the other to split expenses differently based on change in income?
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Liveblogging thoughts, paused for stopping kid putting crayon in mouth
Summary
Nonononono you don’t ask him to pay you. You tell him you’re splitting all pregnancy costs, need extra support during pregnancy and that after your leave is up, HE is taking 6 months - a year off. That’s how he gets an equivalent financial hit AND learns to share fair responsibility for bringing up the kid.
Continued: I’d also feel thrown and offended if we chatted about kids, agreed to stop birth control…
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And THEN my spouse through a highly detailed plan at me! I should be consulted in that, even if I’m not the one carrying the baby! Team effort is critical. Pregnancy and Babies don’t let you pick your preferred anything, what happens if she has a high risk pregnancy?
I don’t think the woman has actually thought about the reality of what it means to be pregnant or have a small person who you have to care for with another person who has their own style of parenting.
Here:
But the immediate and essential element here is that, she wants me to pay her $50,000 - $100,000 to compensate for the loss of her salary for 6-12 months as a result of her having our child.
No. You’ve both missed the point. It’s not about money, it’s about her deciding everything about how your child is raised. I might have personal experience with this
More reading…
… Uh dude she was absolutely talking to her sister about babies and pregnancy and getting advice, even if she’s not actually pregnant yet.
I’m seeing the gender divide in thinking about pregnancy and kids pretty starkly here. It didn’t even occur to him to start planning for this stuff, but that doesn’t mean she gets to decide if all on her own. He needs to step up and she needs to actually talk to her husband. Lack of communication with fuck them over quicker than anything else. Especially reading about her abortion, I feel that’s something you should at least mention to the other person “hey, our birth control failed. I’m having an abortion.”, Not months later …
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