True Crime

Here with a podcast rec for you all! I just listened to Mopac Audio’s Yuba County Five series, and I’ve started their LISK series. Both have been really well done and engaging.

For anyone who is familiar with it, the Yuba County Five story is weird, but I thought they did a nice job of connecting the dots in a way I haven’t read or heard before. CW that the five missing men in the story either had intellectual disabilities (some of their families say they would be diagnosed with autism today) or mental illness. In my opinion this was the most respectful telling of their story that I’ve heard, but the families of the missing men talk about the ablism they faced in the search, so didn’t want anyone to go into this without the warning.

I have a theory of why this podcast is so good, here is my taxonomy of true crime podcasts. There are two kinds:

  • Goal is to be entertaining. As a result, the podcast hosts might be too flip about serious topics, get details wrong, or take shortcuts that get them in trouble (e.g. My Favorite Murder, Crime Junkie’s plagiarism scandal, etc. etc.)
  • Goal is to tell stories that haven’t been told or bring light to serious issues. As a result, the topics can be really sad (police corruption, any and all intersecting -isms and -phobias) and can make a listener feel outraged or hopeless. Since the focus is on the victims and families, the host might not challenge or question the perspective of interviewees. The other tradeoff is that people telling these stories may not be great podcast editors or writers: I want to like Invisible Trace but the writing is just so bad!

Yuba County Five is, for me, the rare true crime pod that can do both. It’s entertaining, well-paced, and seems to be good journalism that deals thoughtfully with dark stories.

Would you add/change the taxonomy?

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I redact my LISK podcast recommendation! Too slow moving, and uncritical of some of the info they’re given.

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Ok I have two really good ones now: John Orr and Winnie Ruth Judd. The former is about an arsonist fire fighter and is really fascinating in terms of alllll the types of fire attraction/obsession. The Winnie Ruth Judd one is like, one of the craziest all around stories I’ve heard.

I’d add to the taxonomy:

Conversational- which is entertainment focused and usually has hosts without any special expertise. These types can be funny or serious, tone depends on guest, and the level of research varies. I’d say subtypes could be irreverent (My Favorite Murder), chatty (Bailey Sarian), journalism-ish (Kendall Rae). These rarely include live interviews or expert interviews.

Insider- which is when it’s being produced by people with specific professional knowledge (FBI, medical examiner, etc.) tend to be more straightforward and educational. America’s Most Wanted, Candace DeLong, Cold Case, etc.

Gore/Salacious- I’d say lots of ID discovery shows fall into this one, like Forensic Files, Killer Women, etc. These usually seem to be short and are focused on gore/shock.

Slanted Series- The super super super skewed (but long) series like the new one Scott Peterson, Making a Murderer, Serial, etc. They can be either investigative and well researched or hugely misleading and short on facts. These often include live interview clips and expert interviews.

Population Based- I think this describes shows that are focused on a specific victim population, and that shows that fall into this category could also be in any of the other categories (but usually probably Conversational or Slanted Series).

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Is anyone up to date on the whole Amber Heard/Johnny Depp case? I don’t really go in for celebrity stuff normally but I keep seeing all these clips on youtube and the case seems so muddled and weird. Kind of up for a deep dive but I know literally nothing, like never even heard of her and don’t really know anything about Johnny Depp (except that I liked him in Donny Brosco).

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Not super up to date, but I’d seen stories off and on for years and now the case is HUGE. I don’t think it will be a good one for me to follow.

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I’m watching the new Keep Sweet FLDS documentary on Netflix and I had to stop because I have THOUGHTS.

Summary

I haven’t really learned anything new since I’ve been following cults for so long, and this cult in particular. But one thing I can’t stop thinking about is in the first episode. There’s an interview with a guy who is a mainstream Mormon and he’s talking about how mainstream Mormons in general feel like polygamy is this huge embarrassing thing that everyone knows about, etc. THEN the guy says something to the effect of: this is what happens when you have a bunch of men in charge of a religion, controlling women and girls. I just…I don’t understand the lack of reflection.

I mean, yes FLDS are fundamentalists, it’s literally in their name, but their beliefs are 100% built off the book of mormon and the teachings of Joseph Smith which are still followed by mainstream Mormons. The religions wasn’t wholesale created by Warren Jeffs. I feel like, if you are a person of faith and your faith has fundamentalist and extremist sects…why would you not do some serious self-searching about the root of why extremism was able to bloom from your religions? Because mainstream Mormons are super patriarchal. Their official teachings are that women are sealed to their husbands. Their husbands, if they are holy, will inherit a planet when they die, and become gods. Their wives will just go with them and be mothers of “celestial children”…so, same role for them. If their husband is not holy, even if the woman is holy, she will be banished to hell with him. That is official doctrine! Women are still not allowed to wear pants in the church. Some young Mormon women have written about this online (disagreeing with) and been immediately excommunicated.

Women are also still not allowed to hold any office in the church. Women are not allowed to teach unless they are teaching children, if men are in the room they cannot teach, and that includes boys like 14+. There is also still a council of elders (all old men) who even female children are forced to go before to confess sins. Children are literally put in a room with them and asked about things like their masturbation habits, extensively. If they confess to anything unholy they are not permitted to enter the temple, which means everyone knows they did something wrong. Women are encouraged to have at least 4 kids, and they are discouraged from working once they are pregnant with their first.

It just absolutely blows my mind that he sees no connection. I mean, certainly I’m not saying that standard LDS people are doing what Jeffs did. But it’s not entirely that far off. Joseph Smith was pro polygamy, he did say stuff about women being ready for marriage when her body is ready for childbearing (i.e. first period). Like…how can you not take accountability in some way? If you have a faith of any kind that faith is certain to have extremists but I think sidestepping it in this way like it’s a few bad apples is such weak bullshit. Like there’s a reason it was so easy to twist that doctrine, because kernels of it do exist in the mainstream Mormon church. And I think the more recent and egregious the abuses are in a religion the more people who have that faith are obligated to speak out vehemently and admit things that need to change and then push for that change.

It just reminds me so much of what happened with the Catholic church. Most of my family is Catholic and when the major spotlight news thing broke about the systemic pedophilia they would hardly acknowledge it and get super offended and #notallcatholics about it. But like, part of why that was allowed to happen does have to do with church teachings which they follow, like seeing the pope as the infallible voice of god, not allowing female leadership in any meaningful way, not allowing priests to marry, extreme hierarchies and lack of transparency, the view of Man (#1) Woman (#2) Children (#3), the low level nuns are seen at compared to all male clergy, the pushing of forgiveness instead of accountability, the push for donations, the “thoughts are as bad as deeds” mantras, the women are responsible for men’s actions, the god chooses imperfect vessels for his word as an excuse for disgusting men, the idea that those men can be instantly forgiven if they are sorry…and still go to heaven, etc. Like that stuff is still 100% alive and well in the church today. If you’re a Catholic and you get divorced (even for abuse) you are no longer allowed to take communion and you cannot be remarried in a Catholic church. Oh, or that if you do get married in the Catholic church you have to go through pre-marriage counseling sessions, with a priest…you know, a man who has never been married. Like that person is still the authority, on everything.

These extremist groups and abusive behaviors don’t just manifest out of nothing IMO. And it’s so wild to me to not see that clearly and be super critical of your own faith, loudly critical, and loudly pushing for change that distances your faith further and further from the bad actors. Especially in the context of a documentary about exactly that, like if it isn’t happening there it’s hard to believe it’s happening at all. It’s just…IDK. Maddening. Like why do they think the cop who was found guilty of MARRYING A CHILD was given a slap on the wrist? It’s not because everyone in the courtroom was a fundamentalist, they weren’t, but that underpinning thought of “blame the women” or “she sure looks grown up” stuff runs through the entire religion and region. Many ex-Mormons (mainstream ones) talk about allegations of child rape being met with, “were you defrauding him? were you being sensual?” It’s all part of the same thread FFS!

I’m sure there are specific pockets of exceptions and people who are more casual and modern and private about their beliefs, but like, how can you not question your own culpability? Or some of the teachings? Even if it’s just in one ward, or whatever, it should be of utmost concern to everyone. And I think seeing it as totally separate and just sort of stealing the name of the religion, or whatever, is absurd and intellectually dishonest.

Other than that, as always, I am positively floored by the courage of the women who escaped and spoke out. Carolyn Jessop wrote a fantastic book about her escape with her 5 children if anyone is interested in reading more.

Also, a random fun fact for anyone else who is interested in cults: most cults are not religious! Isn’t that nuts? I learned that from an FBI cult expert I watched an interview of. She said most cults are actually: family cults, political/philosophical cults, criminal cults (like cartels, gangs), or commercial cults, and that religious cults are far less common overall. Blew my tiny little brain apart.

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Since it sounds like you might know or have opinions, how are cults the same/different from total institutions?

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So AFAIK several different factors are involved in distinguishing a cult, but it’s not exactly a science that everyone agrees on. There are definitely organizations that are in a grey are. The main things I seem to hear/read from experts that define a cult are: a high level of control over decision making in the personal lives of followers, high time commitment on the part of participants, isolation from anyone not involved in the cult, excommunication for people who go against the cult, often lots of financial pressure to give a lot of money to the cult, sometimes this can include surrendering property or trusts too, financial dependence on the cult.

A million edits bc: v high

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At a guess I’d say this is one of the key differences for some religious institutions because they technically get to interact with, say, the grocery store etc.

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Yes and no, it’s more like mental isolation. Usually they are allowed to interact if it’s a business type interaction, like Amish people for example. Approved members can sell stuff to “gentiles/English” people (what they call us) but like, they couldn’t invite you for dinner and they wouldn’t make friends with you, etc. Same with Jehovah’s Witnesses usually, they can interact as much as is needed with co-workers and they can go door-to-door to preach, but they won’t be friendly beyond that and really aren’t allowed to have non JW friends. Like if you ask a JW co-worker to do something after work they’re not going to do that, because really they think you are like…damned. You are not one of the chosen ones, and they are.

I use those two as examples since they’re both organized religions that many ex-members call a cult, and that have a lot of attributes of a cult, but are seen by broader society as just a religion. But I think a lot of cults fall into that. The idea that all cults are on compounds totally separate from society isn’t super accurate. Lots of cults operate businesses that normie people use (like the Twelve Tribes cafes, Oneida silverware, etc.) but they are still very much “set apart”. They might be nice to your face but they do not consider outsiders to be the same as themselves, and the whole shunning of people who leave. Like Scientologists do that a lot. Many of them work in mainstream jobs, shop at grocery stores, but they won’t speak to family members who are deemed SPs and kicked out, and they aren’t friendly to non-Scientologists unless they are trying to convert or need to in order to achieve another end. So they look integrated into society, but they aren’t.

This is actually a huge part of why it’s so hard to litigate and prove something is an abusive cult because people will often be like, “but she had a car! she had a job! why couldn’t she just leave?” But like, she might not own that car or that house and her workplace might be owned by the cult AND if she leaves the cult her kids might stay in and never speak to her again, plus she’ll think she’s going to hell, etc. She might not even have access to her own social security card, or know how very basic things work. Plus she’s told she’s only safe because of the protection of the cult, if she goes out from under that umbrella the harsh secular world will do all the horrible things you can imagine to her. You don’t need barbed wire and guns (like Jonestown) to control people, but our laws don’t fully get that yet.

Also, cults are smart and adapt with the times. There are a lot of cults now who realize secrecy looks suspicious, so they are encouraging select (attractive, charismatic) members to do things like start a youtube channel showcasing lifestyle stuff. Think the Duggars, they’re in a cult, but they invited cameras into their homes for years. They shied away from the “to train up a child” debbi pearl stuff they believed on the show, but those of us who were following Michelle online before the show knew they were deeply involved in IBLP and stuff. They were super up front with it before going on tv. Then they went on tv like “We’re just Christians!” but like…they aren’t, lol. They are super fundamentalist. They do it on purpose as like, a commercial for the cult, so others think they still have freedom and choices and just found a great church program that maybe would work for their family too! Then you get in deeper and deeper and deeper, etc.

NXIVM is a good example of a non-religious cult where members were not physically literally separated from society (i.e. they could go to the store, many had jobs, etc.) but were functionally separated via mental control, and unable to speak up, etc. And it’s really hard to prove that kind of thing because like…those people did “willingly” give all their money to the leader…but was it really willingly? Of course not. If it weren’t for the proof of physical abuse he would have gotten away with it. Lots of cults do, because if police are like, “did he put a gun to your head and force you to give him money? did he literally lock you in a room?” it’s like, no and no. Not literally.

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Keep sweet - the number of members who were fully on board with Rulon level FLDS crazy and just not okay with warren jeffs blows my mind

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Ugh, yes! It’s so odd how people don’t see it all as one thing? Like they’re ok with forced arranged marriages between a 19 year old and an 85 year old, but then when it’s a 15 year old and a 35 year old they have an issue. I mean…obviously I am against child marriage but like, they’re both pretty awful.

It kind of reminds me of the excuses friends of serial killers make in their own minds. I can’t remember the guy’s name now but there’s a Netflix doc about a black serial killer who killed like, dozens and dozens of black women, mostly sex workers and tortured them and photographed it all. They interviewed his friends for the doc and it was so bizarre to listen to them say the stuff they said about him, but still express shock that he was a killer? Like he had thousands of degrading pictures of sex workers (and he was married) which he would regularly show them, they knew he was doing that to women, and the way he and they spoke about women was revolting and super dehumanizing, but then they’re like “we were so shocked he was violent! we couldn’t believe it!” Like…ummmmm, really?!?

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Crime scene Times Square something something?

Like they thought he was bragging about being awful to be cool or edgy, but actually he was awful. One or two coworkers seemed bothered by it, but at the time they couldn’t be offended. Gross

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I can’t remember! I don’t think it was NYC but maybe. I feel like I’ve seen similar things in other crime docs and they kind of blend together. It must be justification and not wanting to see the prejudice in yourself? Like these types want to think they are different, when they’re just a notch less terrible?

Found it, this guy- and I think the doc has the same name as his moniker:

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Can you talk more about this stuff? I don’t know what any of it is and I find it fascinating!

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Sure!

Summary

Basically the cult the Duggars belong to is colloquially called the “quiver full movement” or just “quiverfulls”. This name comes from this bible passage:

Behold, children are a gift of the LORD,
The fruit of the womb is a reward.
Like arrows in the hand of a warrior,
So are the children of one’s youth.
How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them;
They will not be ashamed
When they speak with their enemies in the gate.

So, basically they think the final battle for good (read: their specific values) is coming and that their children are their arrows, which will they will send into the world to defeat satan. Yes, really. As such, the goal is to have as many children as possible. They eschew even natural family planning and common sense things about, like, not getting pregnant instantly after having a baby. Because of this you get massive families, like 10+ kids is pretty common. Of course there’s lots of other traditional nonsense about women having long hair and wearing skirts only and modesty and courtship and all the other typical fundamentalist of basically any religion stuff.

Quiverfull is not what most people think of as a cult because it’s de-centralized, so there’s no compound or big mega church. Instead, families join (often following the attendance of a convention, which I’ll talk about in a minute) and each family becomes its own tiny cult with the father as the cult leader. Think of it like a franchise. So each family that’s part of this cult franchise tends to utilize the same types of resources and applies similar standards to their families. Most of these families homeschool, for example, and they use the same homeschool curricula. They usually do not believe in attending a brick and mortar church and opt for “home church”, which they say is due to convenience but is mostly because even the most conservative anti-gay conservative Christians would like, still absolutely not approve of half the shit these people do. They operate on a high control model and do not allow either sex to go to higher education.

So how do all these people end up living such a weirdly similar lifestyle? The main woman who founded this, lol jk of course it was a dude, haha, was named Bill Gothard. He founded the Institute in Basic Life Principles, or IBLP. This org hosts lots of conventions and retreats and nonsense which is many families’ first foray into bananas fundamentalism. All the usual creepy shit occurs at these. Young girls are sent on retreats alone, as it’s an honor to be with Bill, etc. etc. etc. He is also the reason for the insane hair styles as he was super into big ass hair and so made all the women in the cult have Michelle Duggar style 80s hair. If you look up older photos of the Duggar family all the girls used to have it. Maybe he also owns stock in a hair spray company, IDK, but it would explain a lot (humor is how I cope).

The other main organization involved in all this shit is called the Advanced Training Institute International or ATI. What ATI brings to the table is homeschooling curricula which is specifically approved of by this particular brand of crazy religious nonsense. So it’s not just Christian education like you might find at, say, the mormon run college BYU. It’s wayyy past that. The earth is 5,000 years old type stuff, and half of it is straight up religious teachings. Most ATI families live in states where there is NO state standard for homeschooling. ATI is also made (I believe intentionally) so that it’s very easy to cheat, which means kids can spend as minimal time as possible studying. This leaves more time for girl children to do childrearing and house work, which they start as soon as they can walk. And this brings us to Michael andDebbie Pearl, who wrote the book “To Train Up A Child.” The title comes from this bible quote:

Train up a child in the way he should go, And even when he is old he will not depart from it.

Now what most Christians understand this to mean is know your child. Instill in them both positive characteristics that represent your religion AND ALSO help them to achieve things in accordance with their talents and according to their unique personality. The Pearls and Quiverfull people take this to mean beat the living hell out of your kids until you have broken their spirit. This is not an exaggeration. The book details how to break a child’s spirit. They advocate for corporal punishment starting at about 3 MONTHS old. The first step is called blanket training. A baby is placed on a blanket. You use either a glue stick or something similarly hard yet flexible and hit the baby whenever they move off the blanket. In time the baby will stay on the blanket. This is the least intense of the punishments. Several child deaths have been associated with parents following this book. There is also an old video floating around the internet of Michael and Debbie giving a talk in some auditorium to a room of parents. They demonstrate abuse on a plush doll and it is pretty sickening. Again, the reiterating breaking their will or spirit. The goal of all this is to create children who are so obedient that you do not even have to give them orders with words, just a glance. Michelle Duggar is very good friends with Debbie Pearl.

Women are underneath their husbands, which means similar things are done to wives, as well as far worse things. Submitting at all times (and in all ways) is 100% essential. This is where you get the idea of a helpmeet, which is also outlined in the bible. There are a ton of references to this, which you can peruse here. Most translations don’t use the term helpmeet anymore but the meaning remains. Girls of all ages are helpmeets in training, so their #1 goal is doing house work 24/7, which is kind of essential if you have like 15 kids. Girls who grow up in this cult report almost no education but often say they felt like mothers to their siblings. This also makes it very hard for them to leave, as often the siblings are more bonded to the sister-helpers than the mother, who is basically constantly pregnant. You can read stories of ex-members here and I believe a few have written books as well. :

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/what-is-quiverfull/

Vision Forum – Homeschoolers Anonymous

There is one other homeschool organization you will see referenced called Vision Forum, which is now defunct but was basically also part of this mess and run by a guy named Doug Phillips who was buddies with Bill Gothard.

If you want to deep dive further I recommend this forum:

https://www.freejinger.org

This video is also excellent. This young woman talks a lot about being a sister-mother to her siblings, which means she also used the Pearl method on her siblings, which of course she feels horrific guilt for. But she was literally also a child and had that done to her :

Growing Up Quiverfull - The Duggar's Destructive Cult - YouTube

Also AMA! I have been following this stuff for years. My family homeschooled for a while and I met some of these folks, and I was also raised crazy pants religious though not this hardcore brand of fundie. Mine was more “mom has untreated mental illness and unaddressed trauma and uses religion to cope/control everyone around her” but we went to normal school for most of the time (all the time for me, most for my brother), and always a mainstream church. It’s how I got interested in cults though, because the brainwashing was 100% real for me as well. I literally thought she had powers and…a lot of other messed up crazy stuff. So I empathize a lot with ex-cult people and have always wanted to understand the dynamic that happens, particularly with brainwashing and high control. I have a lot of theories about brainwashing, haha. Shocker!

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Wow, that is super fascinating, thank you! I was aware of the Quiverfull movement but everything beyond your first few paragraphs was new to me. Pretty much terrifying!

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I misunderstood! Haha, sorry for the over-explanation, lol. It really is such a clusterfuck of weirdness.

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For other people interested in Christian fundamentalism in the USA, I just found this channel which is pretty interesting. I think this shows a good view of other fundies who are less obvious based on appearance and behavior, etc.

Like she was allowed to wear shorts and pants, played sports, etc. but it was still a very high control environment. I think this is a good example of a single family cult, rather than what the public thinks of as a cult (something like Heaven’s Gate or even Quiverfull, etc.).

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This is a wild ride. Cover ups, scandal, murder, gross old money white family in the south, you get it.

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