I always look forward to your posts, FIFoFum; they are thoughtful and pragmatic with a lot of empathy for different viewpoints. If I were to pick someone to draft guidelines you’d be my first choice.
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I think there’s a reason those of us with moderating experience end up noping out after a point 
I spent a couple years doing regional moderating for Buy Nothing, plus some other large groups. I don’t even moderate my local BNP now 
thats not a coincidence… burn out from moderating is REAL
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I heartily agree with clearer rules and gentle redirection. Also with some education on how to take feedback, because I think we all kneejerk into heel digging. It is great when people model constructive behavior in both “call outs” and also admitting they need time to learn.
There are some ideas that I understand and empathize with but I don’t think is always helpful: namely, that we don’t owe compassion to those with privilege who need to learn. I think we do.
Also, I don’t know that the forum should be considered a universal safe space in the sense that there won’t be emotionally draining ideas. I do think it should be safe from attack and vitriol. This includes spoilering sensitive issues that we are still all learning are sensitive. I don’t think its fair to expect that spoilering from all.
I think we DO need designated safe spaces that should be respected. I think creating these safe spaces will do a huge amount in educating forumers on sensitive issues simply by their existence. These safe spaces can be threads.
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I’m technically a mod but really I just hand out badges and make jokes about being a mod. I would be willing to step up if empowered to do so, but I would undoubtedly fuck up and people would have to forgive me.
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I was part of a (much larger) forum years ago that did exactly this - there was a BIPOC subforum (and some others) that required admin approval to get posting access, but was open to everyone to read. I learned so much from those threads.
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That is very interesting. How did someone qualify to post?
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It was something like had to be an active member w/certain number of posts, and identifying as the subforum identity (BIPOC, non-heteronormative gender - this was long enough ago the language has changed a lot so I can’t remember the actual name) or as someone affected by the subforum topic (addiction).
ETA I forgot that as the forum grew, those subforums became invite-by-someone-already-in-them plus the above requirements. It seemed like it added a layer of security around people being who they said they were/being active members.
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Thank you for this thread. I’ve learned a lot in this forum and all of you. I am part of those who need to be more vigilant to the fact that some topics such as weight or mental health can be triggering (even when discussing it in my journal relative to myself). So I appreciate the fact that people speak up about those issues in specific threads as long as they do it in a considerate manner. I hope that as I learn more, I’ll be more sensitive to ‘triggering’ topics. I also think that it’s a good thing that we’re not all equally ‘informed’ on all issues so there’s room to learn from each other, fill some blind spots and grow as a community.
I love the idea of ‘safe’ spots. I am a member of some disability related forum and I’ve learned a lot from those and can only discuss some topics there or briefly in my journal.
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As someone who might talk about things that trigger others (i.e. weight loss), I’m happy to follow whatever guidelines are set, whether they be in the top of a thread or sitewide. Even just suggestions for best practices vs. rules would be helpful.
And @anomalily you are doing a great job. This is just part of growth (and diversity of thought and experiences too).
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Fatphobia is a really big issue for many forumers, but the way that people are getting called out on it is not creating a safe or comfortable space for folks, many of which are fat themselves. I am getting an equal number of flags for people calling out fatphobic content as for the way people are calling other people out.
I’d like to figure out how we work towards standards around fatphobia specifically, the issue being that it is a pervasive mindset in our society, like all systemic oppression, it is difficult to define. And while it has been around for a long time, thinking about it is changing rapidly
Just like sexism and homophobia and transphobia and racism - whether or not something is fatphobic can be defined differently depending on your school of thought and personal experience.
And more generally, something might not be fatphobic, but be triggering for some people. Talking about food is triggering for people, but it might not be fatphobic. Talking about your own weight loss is not necessarily fatphobic (though it could be) but it can be triggering to folks. Talking about syringes isn’t a -ism, but it can be triggering for folks.
This is not an easy issue, and I’d like to find good ways to have standards. Having me, or other mods, be the “arbiters” of what is fatphobic or not is not a good long-term strategy for the forum. I have a full-time job. I sleep. I can’t always be available for fast action, and I am not an expert on all oppression, I can’t always make the call.
Suggestions? I hear from many people that they do not enjoy their experience on many threads lately, and I’d like to make that better.
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I’ve seen this crop up on several threads several times now, and I think right now most people are leaving feeling hurt, no matter if they did the calling out or the being called out.
I’d personally be interested in hearing from folx who have done the calling out on what their ideal resolution/solution to a fatphobic event would be.
I.e.
You, person Y, called person X out because they posted a poem that was fatphobic.
What do you, person Y, seek from the interaction?
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Mostly I just want to see that it’s removed if it’s mean but I’m not usually there until after the callout happened and I’m like
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Yeah. This is how I feel about calling stuff out, but didn’t want to assume. 
I also personally want the person who did the oopsie posting (assuming for a moment that the post was in good faith but just bad taste or the poster was unaware) to realize they did a bad. And I think that’s especially hard for fatphobia right now since it’s much more nebulous a definition and much more pervasive culturally.
Maybe the standards can apply to the calling out as well as the content?
Like, a person can be like “hey, did you know that that drawing was super offensive?”
And if person X doesn’t go “Oh shit, I’m sorry!” and take it down, then one more post asking for it to be removed/and a flag for moderation so it doesn’t go down a rabbit hole?
But I worry that’s stifling and asking people to shut up.
IDK. 
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Alternative:
Could a code of conduct be written, communally, and then given up to a vote over a period of a week for the forum to implement, yay or nay?
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I would mostly prefer that something be behind a spoiler rather than removed.
I think it is also hard for any awareness and sensitivity to be built when those calling out an issue don’t explain why they find it offensive. Saying it is X doesn’t help me (assuming I am the OP of the item) to learn to identify what elements are offensive so I can avoid posting something similar in the future. I realize that this can be hard when emotions are running high, and those being oppressed shouldn’t always be tasked with educating others. But just getting yelled at doesn’t help either. Sorry if this is all poorly articulated - but it is frustrating to watch the tone of this community degenerate to accusations and name-calling.
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I think this is situation dependent. If it’s a triggory situation (i.e. a person posting about their own body that might be harmful to others but is THEIR BODY) then yeah, spoilering it when in a public (not that person’s journal) thread is polite and good practice and possibly should be part of our code of conduct.
But if it’s an offensive piece of media or a harmful set of words, then I think it should be treated as any other ‘ism’ would be. I.e. we wouldn’t leave up a blackface thing.
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Reasonable people are going to disagree on the idea of calling people out - whether it should be done at all and if so how.
I’ve been involved in multiple forums that were (mostly) successfully run with the expectation that if you have a problem, you don’t call it out publicly & you certainly don’t allow threads about a content topic to devolve into any discussion of the appropriateness of the post.
As a result, my framework is very much to have content privately flagged & sufficient moderation (spread out among multiple people with the ability to follow guidelines delegated to them). If someone doesn’t understand why something is flagged and genuinely wants to learn, that’s on them and the moderation to discuss (or to refer to volunteers or other resources). Not on the person harmed or even choosing to report/flag something.
If the same type of thing keeps getting flagged, that suggested the policy needs to get more explicit in the site FAQ/guidelines as to what is acceptable and what isn’t.
And if moderators don’t think something should be flagged, the concerned parties should be free to PRIVATELY raise a concern in phrasing or content. Because people acting in good faith are typically going to remove or edit things anyway, even if they didn’t violate some rule.
ETA: I understand there are people who specifically think calling out isms is important to show other marginalized people that they aren’t alone and as part of the education process. I do not think that goal needs to be met in a community where we have other opportunities to support people and educate.
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Yes - it is hard to define absolute brightline rules.
I am mostly thinking of recent examples on the meme thread - where I would lean toward putting behind a spoiler. But maybe as I think more about this and learn and evolve I might later move to thinking a thing should just be removed.
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I’m not good at answers because I wanna make everyone happy. I want the people offended to be understood and validated and the people apologizing to be forgiven and I want there to be education but also not put the burden on those most hurt not make the whole space about the education and aaaagh this is why I’ve never moderated anything ever
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@Oro my personal preference is that the person who posted something hateful says oops, sorry, learns from it and either deletes it or leaves it there so others can see the interaction and know what isn’t okay. But I’m dreaming; repeated recent experience on this forum suggests very few people will do that. The recent meme, for example: both rabbitarian and I said it was fatphobic and other people started the debate, arguing that it wasn’t.
Funny how if I’m told something is racist, transphobic or any other kind of hate speech, I don’t try to debate the person informing me.
The members of this forum tolerate fatphobia in a way we would never tolerate other forms of hate speech. That’s a real problem.
Which is a real issue right now.
I haven’t seen any name-calling. What am I missing here? Or are we saying that labelling a post fatphobic is name-calling?
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