ramit really is one of those guys who thinks his perspective is THE perspective. like i remember on one episode he was laughing at a group of people who talked about holding space for feelings and he was like “what? normal people dont talk about this kind of stuff!”
meanwhile he wears $1000 sweaters so im not sure i trust him to be the arbiter of “normal” … im holding space for my feelings that he lost touch with normal a loooooong time ago.
Til Debt with Gail Vaz-Oxlade. Excellent show! Available on YouTube! Does get a bit repetitive.
It doesn’t seem like that is his style at all, he’s more about “money feelings”. (If he had different training or a partner, it could be money psychology.)
I think there is some validity to that, you can understand the logic and math and still not feel able to stop impulsive decisions and actions. Did Brad understand the math, given he hadn’t saved for anything since childhood? Questionable.
Here with a hot take! I listened to both Brad and Becca episodes, and I actually like the framing of “unsophisticated with money.” It puts the onus on the person doing the spending, which means they can do something about it. I feel like a lot of us here have been broke but “good” with money - very much including my younger self in this - and it’s a definite skillset and mindset shift.
A person can become more sophisticated about anything, and it has the potential to be a fun project. If you’re “good with money” or “bad with money,” that’s a fixed state, and it’s harder to overcome. It reminds me of the research that you’re not supposed to tell kids that they’re good or bad at math, and instead focus on skills and steps. I would say unsophisticated is the most generous way to tell an adult, you’re struggling with this and you have the potential to do better.
Side note that I am sick and get my sickest midday, and I don’t know when midday starts and ends until it hits. So if I ignore responses that’s why!
The one comment in this same vein he made to Becca about this I thought hit the nail on the head when she said “that is just how he is wired.”
Becca: [00:17:51] That’s been what I’ve been preaching to him. We can pay off the credit cards, we can pay off your truck, and we’re still going to come back around to this, because it’s just how you’re wired with money right now.
Ramit Sethi: [00:18:02] Well, hold on. I agree with everything, except for that last part. When you tell somebody, that’s how you’re wired, what you’re telling him is you’re going to be like that forever, so you might as well give up, there’s no way to change. And how do you think somebody receives that message?
Becca: [00:18:17] Not the way intended.
Ramit Sethi: [00:18:19] Yeah, exactly. If you said that to me, I’d be like, “Well, then screw it. Give me two campers, because I might as well have some fun if I’m always going to feel stressed, at least I’ll have two campers.”
I like the way you phrased this but I still feel icky about the word unsophisticated, but I don’t have a better one. Maybe unskilled? Because you can improve a skill?
I agree with @iualia about not being the biggest fan of the podcast for many of the reasons listed but I really really enjoy the conversations around money we are having as a result. Back in my MMM days I would almost exclusively read the case studies. I think it is super interesting to see where people spend their money and why. What I didn’t love about MMM is the face punches and just assuming people should stop spending money on certain things and they were dumb for doing so. I like how this community does show someone where they can improve spending, but also brings in a level of personal beliefs, society pressure, family pressure, systematic issues, and more to a place of understanding how we spend money and how to change that for a better life.
Fair! Or even something with an -ing at the end, to signify that it’s an iterative process for anyone. There isn’t an end goal where a person does money perfectly.
Unskilled is kind of a loaded word, too, though. It makes me bristle in a way that “unsophisticated” doesn’t, actually. I like it (un)sophisticated, it makes a lot of sense to me.
It makes it feel kind of aspirational, right? I’m not cheap, I’m sophisticated.
That’s interesting. I was going to suggest the same because “unsophisticated” seems icky in a classist way, but maybe unskilled is similarly loaded?
You’re totally right! In another context I hate the term (un)skilled labor as a way to refer to a group of people. I am sorry for not making the connection of how loaded that word is too.
Totally agree. I mean all I could hear what the sheer number of times he called them unsophisticated, and I call BS on Ramit saying he’d be fine being called that, lol, no he wouldn’t. If I told Ramit I thought his understanding of psychology and personal finance was unsophisticated he’d freak right out!
I think Dave Ramsey is so much kinder and less insulting to people! What he calls the way people like this are living? Normal. He says, “ok, so you guys are in debt on everything, that means your normal. But normal sucks. Normal is terrible in this country. We want you to be better than normal.” And people always laugh at that and when families or individuals do their debt free scream, which is one of my favorite parts of the show, they often start saying things like, “well we had $30k in car loans, $50k in student loans, and $10k in credit cards…we were normal.” I think that is much more compassionate and also accurate! Because that really is how most people are living. It is normal to think “I’ll buy a shed to store our excess stuff and I need to buy a truck to pull the RV we haven’t paid off,” whether Ramit likes it or not, that is normal. Buying furniture on a payment plan is normal. And I think framing it as normal but terrible, rather than unsophisticated OR predatory loaning vs. helpless prey is much more empowering.
I totally agree. He makes so many little snide punching down jabs. He didn’t call the guy who was refusing to let his wife spend any money (with a 15 million net worth) unsophisticated or selfish, but he was! Ramit constantly praised how good he was at being strategic and logical, lol. It’s not clever and sophisticated to prioritize money over marriage. It’s not logical, because a divorce is way more expensive than the stupid lawn she wanted, right? It’s not logical to say “100% of the finances are mine even though I was only able to make all this money because of my wife”. It’s not logical to wait until a problem get so bad that your partner is threatening divorce for you to address it. NOT. LOGICAL. Some might even call it, unsophisticated.
I think Ramit lives in an extreme bubble, but because he’s well traveled and probably has friends from different countries (etc.) he doesn’t believe that to be true. I’ve known people like that before, and they absolutely don’t believe it’s possible they are in a bubble because when they picture a bubble they imagine some parody of small town America. Bubbles come in all different forms though! You can speak 3 languages and travel the world and be in a bubble.
@iualia Are you talking about Money Moron or Till Debt do Us Part? Because I love both of those shows.
Basically I agree with everyone else! I love the show because of the thoughts and discussion. It has helped me think about some of my planning differently! But yeah I don’t think Ramit is as great at this type of counseling as he thinks. If I were that couple today I would have no freaking idea where to go from here. I hope they find some real help somewhere because they seemed sweet and earnest to me.
I propose “novice”.
Conveys the idea of having lots of room for growth of skill and knowledge without (I think?) making it associated with being in the snooty cool rich kids club.
I’ve met a lot of people with a lot of money who don’t have an ounce of sophistication in their body 
and I don’t mean how they manage money, like overall in life/personality
Edit again: I am snooty and proud of it
OMG I don’t think we did. That one was awful 
I felt so bad for that woman. What a horrendous thing to grow up seeing. I did a major 
at Ramit’s description of how totally confused he was when he first learned that a lot of women are afraid of their husband’s leaving them with nothing. What a mystery! LOL, like dude, your bubble is showing again.
I’m not saying rich people are sophisticated, just that’s a quality associated with rich/famous/luxury/classy etc. I personally welcome sophistication (and snootiness) from people of all income and wealth levels 
Pretty sure he calls people dumba$$es with some regularity.
Particularly if they defend choices like keeping a credit card they pay off monthly.
I’ve listened to him for years and I feel that’s super rare! I find his jibes much less condescending and more good natured.
He does do some face punch type stuff but I think that can be effective and isn’t always taken as an actual insult, more like a friendly expected jibe. Maybe it’s a cultural difference, like I would talk to some of my friends that way too, but not others who would be highly sensitive to it.
Like people will call in and say, “I’ve been a dumbass Dave!” and he’ll say, “hey I’ve been there, I know stupid because I’ve done stupid.” So I think it’s different when he is saying a move is a dumbass move or someone is being a dumbass, when he has also declared bankruptcy and talks extensively about his own dumbass decisions in the past. Versus someone like Ramit who grew up relatively well off and then went to an elite college and instantly became wealthy calling people who represent the majority unsophisticated.
If that makes sense? Dave Ramsey is super rigid about his system and credit cards and will kind of lightly mock things like that, and I think a lot of his products he sells are BS, but I feel like it’s generally in aid of helping people. I think part of the success of his system is that there is no room for negotiation, there is ONE WAY, like MMM kind of, and I think that can be a helpful starting point for people who have no road map at all. Sometimes the “everything is different for everyone and we have to figure out our values” advice is not helpful. Like I don’t think I would have done well with that at all. I loved finding MMM and Dave Ramsey because they basically just told me their perspective on money strategy without apology and in a super direct way! I knew exactly what they would each say on different things and that helped me use what worked from each of them.
Some of it is a gut thing too. Like, I genuinely don’t think Dave Ramsey looks down on people who don’t have their financial shit together. Any time a single mom calls in, regardless of her finances, he encourages her to stop and take a minute to give herself some major credit for the job she’s doing and to be kind to herself. When a man who works is being controlling over the finances with the homemaker partner he calls them out as being selfish and having terrible priorities, he always says that both partners get equal say regardless because it’s all shared money. I feel like there’s a lot of hope in his calls even when he is a little bit tough or bombastic. Whereas I think Ramit does genuinely looks down on people with sheds, who own trucks, and have credit card debt. Like I don’t think he could hide his contempt very well if he had to actually interact with large groups of people like that.
Just how I see it though! I see DR helping a lot more people longterm than Ramit but I’ll definitely keep listening to both out of interest! They’re super different in what they’re trying to do also. I admire DR because he’s changed and evolved over time. They have a whole mental health show now, for example, and discuss that kind of stuff with a lot of sensitivity. Very validating to people’s experiences overall, I’d say, but also honest and not going to pull punches if someone needs it. Which I think sometimes people do! But I know I’m a bit unusual here on that front, like I didn’t find the face punching culture at MMM to be hostile or mean or ableist. I kind of thought it was fun, haha! Even though some of it didn’t totally apply to me.
i used to listen to and like dave ramsey, but it seems like as time has gone on, he’s gone further down a right-wing rabbit hole and calcified some of his worst qualities and views. he seems like a shitty person, tbh, and a terrible employer. his advice for getting out of debt is pretty good, but man i just can’t with his covid denying, prosperity gospel bullshit anymore.
Oh I remember that one. I was cooking dinner while listening to it and had to stop to roll my eyes at his preciousness. He said something like “Was there something I missed that every woman has learned?” Dude, yes. I’m not sure how you managed to miss it, but you did. Welcome to the world the rest of us live in.
Haha, yeah he’s become borderline conspiracy theorist for sure which is not that surprising considering his whole deal.
He was so wrong on covid. It was slightly hard to listen to a few of those episodes in real time, I was like duuuuude, stay in your lane!!! Nooooo. Haha. I mean he’s pretty arrogant in general, which makes sense for that profession.
I’m tolerant towards his religious views even though I don’t share any of them at all. I feel like he is relatively unobtrusive about it while still saying what he truly believes? There’s the bible quote at the beginning of the episode and then that line at the end about Jesus, but it doesn’t bother me. He also always has a quote right after from a great thinker/author/entrepreneur at the beginning. I think he could have a much wider reach if he excluded any mention of religious or political beliefs from the show completely though. I think a lot of people instantly turn off because of that. I imagine the workplace is a definite bubble in those same ways and not at all diverse in many areas (same with his hosts for sure), which I wouldn’t enjoy, but I still like the show!
Like with Ramit or MMM or any of these expert types I take what I agree with and leave the rest. I totally disagree with Dave’s view on credit cards, for example. And his view on just, moving for purely a lower cost of living. Definitely not doing that. His whole smartvestor thing seems really stupid too, like you don’t need help with investing when you have almost no assets. And his whole mutual funds only thing doesn’t make sense. I think he also fails in certain markets with the order of things he suggests, like some of his stuff is just outdated now. I don’t think an early 20s couple should defer all retirement savings until they have all their student loans paid off. Like not even getting the match? That’s cray IMO. And his wealth calculator is WILDLY optimistic, lol, I’d take that with a big old grain of salt too.