I was raised in a fairly strict (as well as abusive) household and in the Mormon faith. She was raised in a kind, loving household in the Presbyterian faith. We both left our faith systems as teenagers and stayed away for various reasons.
As adults, re-reading Narnia we felt like we were being hit over the head with it - her words "I agree with that last quote [@Clare-Dragonfly regarding proselytizing] - these things are heavy-handed, reading Chronicles of Narnia as an adult is very “Wow this doesn’t make sense at all unless you’ve been raised Christian so the batshit things were introduced before you knew how to think critically”
Not to say that anyone’s faith system is in any way wrong; we both felt like they didn’t benefit us as much as they could have and led to being held back in some areas because of our indoctrination and difficulty breaking away from those systems and ways of thinking.
ETA spoiler text due to some personal information and if folks want to avoid further religious discussion
I think this is a good point and probably a part of it. Both of those stories always felt to me like they were trying to recruit because of the forcefulness of the stories, and for those of you that don’t know, we are a very not-proselytizing people.
I went for a walk and thought about this the whole time. I also wondered if it’s because argument and commentary is such a big part of things that a story without asides and “but then so and so said this which really makes you think…” might be missing? And then there’s also just something I’m not sure how to articulate but I’m going to try since this is a supportive place for dialogue and it seems like everyone here has good intentions and a desire to learn…
In the US, christian culture is so dominant that it significantly impacts everyone in it, whether or not they are believers or churchgoers or if they’ve rejected that entirely, and this often creates these interactions in which people attempt to put minority cultural practices into familiar contexts. For example, I converted to Judaism. This is not an easy or short process, and over the course of the years I was pursuing it, not a single Jew, including any of the rabbis involved in my conversion, ever asked me what I believe. Of all those rabbis I spent time with over that time, and since, I have no idea what their idea of G-d is and whether or not they believe that G-d is literally and/or accurately portrayed in the stories we tell. What they have said is that those stories have been important to Jews for centuries, and they’re what we’ve built our lives around. But many if not all of the Christians in my life did ask about what I believe, I think because they can’t imagine a religion without faith as one of the most important, primary tenets. But Judaism is a lot more than a religion and It it would be very easy for someone with a casual familiarity with Jews or Jewish stories to make some major misunderstandings about Jewish life without that context since it is so hard to notice the ways in which we try to make a square peg fit a round hole when the square peg is ‘a culture we’re not familiar with’ and the round hole is ‘the pervasive culture that we swim in.’
That felt a bit rambly and confusing so I’m not sure it made any sense but I’m still sorting through it.
@Illathrael Thanks for bringing it up to your friend, and it’s probably better if it’s just for personal use (I was imagining a list on a library page or something!) I’m glad she’s making an effort to read more outside her own more familiar culture. It might be valuable for her to look into maybe finding a diverse book club she could read with, or other avenues to also research, since it might be easy to draw conclusions that aren’t true with more context.
I think your post was very true and very well put! But I do have the benefit of the cultural context of Judaism. (For context: My dad is Jewish, my mom is Lutheran; we went to synagogue on Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah, church on Christmas Eve; I am now a practicing pagan.)
Maybe this discussion will finally get Baby Gay to join the forums? I keep trying, haha.
From her:
"Can you please tell them (singular they/them, or however many people gave feedback, idk if this is the same person) for me, first of all huge thank you, and that that was fascinating, and really helpful, and that what they said about Judaism not being so faith based is super intriguing? What little I do know of Judaism jives with that (a culture that tends to value inquiry over blind faith, whose members have a disproportionately large fraction of the Nobel prizes, etc) but I’m so intrigued about how someone not raised in that culture/faith would convert to it without belief being necessary? I’m familiar with people who grew up in a religion and still consider themselves part of it even if they don’t believe, but I have trouble wrapping my brain around someone who converts to a religion in adulthood without faith.
“Trouble wrapping my brain around it” not in the sense that I don’t get it and reject it, but in the “oh wow humans are so varied and cool, tell me more!” way.
The book club idea is great, and a place where I could get more if they feel done educating a rando lol"
I would expect that if your friend finds the right librarian that they could be very helpful. I am not sure I could find a qualified person here. I would also think about finding someone in Religious Studies, History, or similar area of study at a University.
This is a great approach! Most reform synagogues also have 18 week courses on Judaism that would be great for someone interested as well.
Since I happen to know them off the top of my head, I’ll suggest a couple of books, either Living a Jewish life or Choosing a Jewish life by Anita Diamante. I think without a decent foundation in what being Jewish is, what it means to be a part of the Jewish people, and how Judaism is much more than a religion, it would be a lot of work for anyone to undertake an explanation of why someone might convert.
This is I think a bit of that square peg/round hole thing where there’s this one idea of what religion is that’s shaped quite a bit by the dominant religion’s framing of what religion is (faith).
It’s great that you want to learn! I think this is a place where some research (like one of the suggested books, or taking Gdogg’s suggestion to get help at a library) would help a lot. I’d be willing to talk after you have a bit more of a foundation for Judaism, but I don’t have the time/energy/space to be able to have much more of a discussion about it with someone without some of that foundation.
I read Narnia without much knowledge of christianity. It all makes perfect sense except for the lamb in dawn treader. The last battle, in particular further in and further up and wirods behind worlds all strongly reflected my spiritual but not religious/pantheistic/advaita upbringing. And learning more about truths behind truths, eventually the lamb makes sense, crude though it is.
I read it without any background in Christianity, also. I knew the story enough that when a teacher pointed out the connection to me, I got it. That was first grade. I don’t remember the lamb . It made a fine talking animals fantasy story.
I have someone who cuts my grass for a price that I can afford/am willing to pay. He doesn’t always do the best job though. I found a new guy who wants more money but will do a better job. It is not much, but I don’t have much, so it matters. Three mows by the new one would pay for four mows by the original guy. There’s always other places to spend the money…
How much do you value a well cut lawn? Sometimes good enough is good enough. Maybe you can ask him to neaten it up a bit once a month or so with the quicker
less detailed cuts in between? Like if he is not good with edging / trimming part, maybe he can do the trimming on a less frequent basis but do it more thoroughly / slowly? edit: I wouldn’t want to spend more money on it, but I am not you.
I am in camp good enough is good enough, and my lawn is nowhere near perfect. Last week he totally missed a spot about 5’x5’ right by the road. I had to use the edger on it which certainly didn’t hurt me to do, it’s just the point. And then yesterday he did a better job. I don’t think he really wants to mow for me, he’s kind of doing me a favor so I don’t feel like I can bitch too much either. Ugh. The difference over the summer would probably be about $200 more, which is not a lot but it’s enough.
If you’re not sure he really wants to do it, is it possible he’s doing a bad job in the hopes of you asking to go separate ways? That would be the case where I’d be most likely to pay more, to free someone from a “favor” they don’t want to do.
Her employer is the one who told her, and apparently it’s a batch of like 2000 claims that all came in at once that are fraudulent. She reported it to the Department of Labor using a form they have but just got a “Thanks!” confirmation.
Is that about it? I said she should probably pull a credit report just in case but her credit card has credit monitoring and doesn’t show any changes.
” way.
