I posted last night, but it wasn’t in a helpful tone, so I also wanna say that race plays a huge part in class at economic and social level because a lot of the upper class norms are based in part on white culture. And systematic racism that is a major economic barrier.
I really appreciated that people are happy that their relatives taught them how to look at other people to mimic what they were doing in a setting (for example), but also want to flag for your awareness that part of that blending in is partly because you are white or white passing.
You didn’t do anything wrong or say anything weird, just noticing that maybe that’s not something you may think of as part of your experience and as a POC it’s a nice moment to say, “Oh that is cool that that’s your experience, here is also mine.”
It was certainly a thing that popped into my head in the original discussion whether social class is established in the US, and I definitely think POC and people who are recent immigrants can face unique and very stark barriers.
Fully agree. I didn’t feel qualified to mention that factor since I’m white and don’t have that firsthand experience, but my mom isn’t white and I think her overly careful nature (going into elite settings, like wanting to check our outfits ahead of time, etc.) may be partly attributable to that difference as well as her growing up so poor. I think looking the way I do people assume I belong pretty much wherever I am. No one even questions why I’m in the room and that makes everything a million times easier. I’m assumed to be a peer even when I’m not.
I’m not steeped in the literature, but to me a more useful distinction than broadly “middle class” are two questions:
How secure is your safety net? Do you have personal or family cushion if things go awry — a broken car, a layoff, an unplanned child?
Are you in a position to take short-term risks for longer-term gain? Can you buy one-month transit pass or a box of diapers which are cheaper in the long run? Can you do all your education at once or do you go for incremental degrees like home health aide, then nurse, then nurse practitioner, then nurse anesthetist?
Resource Generation also has interesting definition of 5 classes: Poor/working poor, Working, Middle, Management, Owner. The standard “middle class” definition groups 3 of them (Working, Middle, and Management) together, when experiences and needs are wildly different.
It’s also interesting how immigrant families straddle classes (based on the definitions here, and not income alone). For example, they may hold graduate degrees in their original country and have high expectations for their children’s education, but experience housing and income instability because they can’t find comparable jobs in the US. I wonder if this mismatch actually makes it easier for their children to move up the ladder — because their family expectations were middle- or managerial-class in some aspects, if not all. That was my family’s experience, at least.
Okay this is gonna add a weird amount of possibly unnecessary distraction to this thread but…
Hello here is my essay on class, race, and money in the telenovella Jane the Virgin...
I feel like the show Jane the Virgin even though it’s a dramatic telenovella, did an interesting job of covering class differences in the US.
Jane’s family came from Venezuela, back when Venezuela was rich. Her grandmother was a nurse back in Venezuela but was undocumented in US and was a CNA making minimum wage off the books here for 30+ years. Jane went to college and stayed living with her grandmother and working as a waitress so that she could not take out debt, and had all the hallmarks of lower-middle class.
Because Jane was involved with a very wealthy baby daddy (like he owns multiple hotels before the age of 25), they talked about the differences in expectations for raising children, including the fact she wanted lots of restrictions on the baby’s trust fund, requiring the kid to get an education and turn 30 before accessing the money. The idea they wouldn’t travel to Europe every summer with the child was unbelievable to the Wealthy Baby Daddy because that’s what his father did with him, but Jane thought it would make him spoiled.
Jane had several discussions with her friends about the fact that not only did she have the safety net of her family in a way many of them did not, she also had the safety net of a rich baby daddy now and she had a responsibility to stop acting as though she didn’t - and her obligation to help out her friends that don’t have that safety net.
When wealthy baby daddy lost money, the family used a friend’s address to enroll their child in a better public school because in their neighborhood, it was not good. Middle-class Jane felt that was lying and immoral before her grandmother told her that they had done the same with her. As her grandmother said “what could we do? it was your education” - showing how they value of education, even above maybe their means
They also talked white privilege and race. The character that grew up the most poor (very poor in soviet Czech) was also white, and because of that, she integrated seamlessly with the wealthy set as an immigrant when she got wealthy - far more than the POC characters, like the telenovella star from Mexico - who still had to deal with people thinking he was the help, not the star, etc. (they had an excellent running gag where they would pretend to not understand one another’s accents).
The hidden rules thing is really interesting. I have a lot of remaining behaviors from childhood, so I score 11 on poverty, 8 on middle class. Also technically one on the wealth list (more vehicles than drivers), but I don’t think it has our 1982 Tercel in mind there.
But. I do wonder if “class” has a lot of meaning in the US outside of the two extremes. Maybe that’s just another way of saying the middle class is ill-defined and overly broad.
The reading a menu in 3 languages thing cracked me up. Even ignoring my privilege stuff of travel and fancy language classes, I could do that because I read my native language, read English and then Spanish because of the neighborhood we moved to in the US.
It reminds me of that meme format that went around a few years asking what are things that are classy if you are rich, but trashy if you are poor.
Yeah, there’s that. I likely could read menus in at least three living languages, but I don’t know for sure that I have that vocabulary, and have never had any opportunity to try.
There is a significant difference between the experiences of the lower middle and upper middle class that is worth discussion.
The differences between the lower and lower-middle as well as upper vs upper-middle are even more significant, or as you say, cavernous.
A surgeon and a lawyer in NYC making 1M (before tax) between them are certainly rich by any standard. They have a lot of opportunities. They can buy access to exclusive spaces and connections. They can send their kids to some very exclusive schools. They can buy art. They will most likely become millionaires. They can retire comfortably. But they are still closer to bankruptcy than billionaire status, are unlikely to reach the point of making millions in passive /investment income, cannot afford their own senator (maybe a time share…) Yes they are poking their head out of the UM class but they are insignificant specks in wealth and power next to the true U class. I think it’s important to not lose sight of what The Rich truly means.
And on the flip side, to recognize the leap it takes to get from poverty to LM. Overcoming not just the low income but the survival practices that are maladaptive in the middle class.
Yes, Applebee’s is very different from Bistro 357 Cuisine Francaise, and the Y is very different from Posh City Fitness Inc, but the basic practices and values and expectations of oneself and others span that range, the changes are largely a matter of degree.
I like this, but do they address or have a different track for sole proprietor/small business? Maybe a size of business subtrack under “owner”? It seems like owning a plumbing company or medical practice in a small town is very different than, like, owning SpaceX.
I agree, both can be true. I think on #2 what I was actually saying is that the differences between all these class groups are huge…but that the difference between the upper middle class and the upper class is the one that gets the most attention by far, especially when the conversation participants are largely upper middle class. There’s this tendency to focus on looking up at the ultra rich and their enormous privilege and how unbalanced it is, but then there’s a sort of blanketing in generalities of “everyone else” (i.e. the 99%) and that feels dishonest.
I don’t see much resistance anywhere to talking about the absurdity in lifestyle of the 1% and I feel like culturally we spend a huge amount of time focusing on the ultra rich when we talk about inequity. I get why this is and I think it has a place, but I guess my main aim is focusing on the bottom rung and figuring out what we can do to make that bottom rung less terrible and more mobile. I feel like the poor in general get way less press and conversation time, and like the distinction between working poor and working class or working class and middle class is seen as less important than the distinction between upper middle and upper class. I think when we don’t really look at those class distinctions on the bottom of the scale it’s harder to even know what the struggles are in those groups, what programs would be helpful or unhelpful, what type of education is missing, etc.
I guess on some level it comes down to the fact that I’m not worried about the upper middle class and their lack of access to the upper class stuff. I don’t see that as a problem at all, really. I am worried about the poor and working class and their lack of access to basic middle class stuff. If that makes sense? I’m kind of thinking as I’m typing here…I think we’re generally in agreement though.
Here’s the definition of owner class and the others, it’s not just owning a business:
Summary
POOR AND WORKING-POOR
Life experience often marked by:
Substandard, unstable or inconsistent housing
Underemployed/underpaid, sometimes long-term use of public benefits
Little access to higher education
Basic living expenses might be impossible/difficult to obtain
Debt from predatory lending services (cash advance, etc.), monthly bills, or emergencies
Chronic lack of health care, food, or other necessities
Frequent involuntary moves, chaos, and disruption of life
Often raised with strong value on resource sharing and taking care of each other
Targeted and incarcerated disproportionately by the state generally and specifically through systems like child protective services, vagrancy laws, immigration enforcement, and money/cash bail
Intellectual, artistic, and labor contributions frequently stolen, co-opted, or made invisible in dominant society
Treated as disposable. Conditioned away from participating in the dominant society.
Approximately 20% of the population, control roughly -1% of U.S total net wealth.
Not positioned as political or economic decision-makers. Scapegoated as a burden.
WORKING-CLASS
Life experience often marked by:
Housing sometimes unstable. Rental housing, or if owning a home, the majority of assets and potential for wealth are tied to it.
Occupation often involves physical labor, service or care work for upper and middle-class people. Little control over pay, hours, or access to benefits.
Access to higher education spotty, a large amount of student debt common for people who attend 4-year universities
Generally living paycheck to paycheck with little or no savings
Debt from education, medical bills, and credit cards from day-to-day living expenses or emergencies
Might include turning to public (or community) safety nets to help make ends meet
Often raised with strong value on resource sharing and taking care of each other
Targeted by the state as huge source of revenue through fines, fees, and cash/money bail
Treated as replaceable. Conditioned to resent middle-class professionals (such as bosses, lawyers) and toward the idealization of wealth
Approximately 40% of the population, control roughly 3% of total net wealth.
Not positioned as political or economic decision-makers. White working-class are scapegoated as reason for regressive politics, working-class people of color are ignored.
MIDDLE-CLASS
Life experience often marked by:
Homeownership or other generally stable housing
Depends on wages/salaries to pay the bills. Often jobs with some benefits, some control over the hours and methods of work and/or control over others’ work
Social status and social connections to help the next generation
College generally expected, may or may not complete Bachelor’s degree
Debt is most often in mortgages, education, medical bills
Can generally expect to hold stable employment, but status can become precarious when there are unexpected expenses such as high medical bills, loss of pensions or layoffs
Class confusion, especially in association with managerial/upper-class people who incorrectly self-identify as middle-class
Often at low risk for state interventions with limited ability to seek legal aid if needed
Treated as the norm. Conditioned toward fear of being poor and to act in allegiance with, and aspire to be upper-class.
Approximately 20% of the population, control roughly 8% of U.S. total net wealth.
Sometimes positioned as political and economic decision-makers and regarded as an important demographic.
MANAGERIAL/UPPER-CLASS
Life experience often marked by:
Owning one or multiple homes, travel (including international)
Dependent on salaries, not investments, to pay bills — mid-level to high-level managerial or professional jobs
Education at elite/selective colleges or at public universities often without student loans
Some investment in stock market, might have enough savings to retire early
Might receive or pass down significant inheritances
Social connections, status, and financial knowledge to help the next generation remain financially well-off
Generally at low risk for state interventions, often know legal loopholes, and can turn to private legal aid as needed
Treated as experts. Conditioned towards comparing up so as to see themselves as not that wealthy.
Approximately 19% of the population, control roughly 49% of U.S total net wealth.
Frequently positioned as political and economic decision-makers and as central actors in shaping national narratives.
OWNING/RULING-CLASS
Life experience often marked by:
Owning luxurious home or homes, travel (including international)
Enough income from assets (stocks, bonds, etc.) that full-time work is optional
Education at elite/selective private schools and elite colleges without student loans
Receiving and/or passing down large inheritances
Social connections, status, and financial knowledge to help the next generation remain wealthy
Often encouraged towards hyper-individualism resulting in isolation.
Usually at low risk for state interventions, know/create legal loopholes and can call on top legal aid as needed
Treated as leaders. Conditioned towards seeing poverty as an individual’s fault and wealth as result of an individual’s accomplishment/”hard work.”
Ruling-class describes people who are in the global elite and hold the vast majority of power to determine conditions of people’s lives: billionaires, major CEOs, presidents, senators or other high positions of state power (i.e. — any cabinet position in a presidential administration), oligarchs, etc.
Approximately 1% of the population, control roughly 40% of U.S total net wealth.
Positioned as political and economic decision-makers and central actors in shaping reality for self and others.
I may be wrong on this, but I find the idea of class transfer interesting to consider with respect to the former USSR. Class was expressed very different there in my parents generation, and while of course it was not classless as was “intended,” the “structure” was definitely flattened and homogenized? Like, everyone used the same services for education, medical, food shopping. Money and connections could help you move to a bigger/better town or get exclusive/import/black market goods, but many of the markers in the US culture just didn’t exist. I guess what divisions did exist were cast as “meritocracy” which is effed up. And of course huge stigmas to mental health, substance abuse that landed people in abject poverty but it was “their fault.” Needless to say the society had many issues, I just wonder how the absence of some of those divisions in my parents experience impacts my perception of them if that makes sense?
I completely agree with you, but this conversation was introduced as, like, do we even have classes in the US, how do they relate to income, this is confusing! Not, how do we (country /society) pull the lower class out of poverty. (To which I would respond, the top 1% hold 40% of wealth, and top 20% hold 89% of wealth… I see opportunity there.)
I guess my point is, I am glad if 80-90% of the population can see themselves as some form of middle class. I think that’s the good part of the distribution. Lower middle isn’t great but it’s stable, there is access to ed, healthcare, needs covered. No one should fall below that. Upper middle is comfortable and aspirational, but I think still connected to middle, there is mobility. It’s very income based, like if you enter one of the lucrative professions you can get there. I don’t mind if surgeons make a lot. But above that, the generational wealth, that’s just toxic to our society.
I want to cut off the ends of the distribution at the expense of each other. While also encouraging mobility and mutual respect within the middle class sublayers (eg access to education).
Thanks. I realize I should have just clicked through!
As listed that seems to agree with some of the features/factors I started listing from my internal understanding of the distinctions, so, cool! Eg middle classes rely on employment income, but it’s reasonably stable.
I’m enjoying reading through but don’t want to comment until I have a good deal of time to proof read myself. That said, I landed solidly middle-class in the first quiz (1 yes each to poverty/ upper class, and also I’d divorce anyone from any class according to that quiz!) and middle class again in the better written descriptions. My extended family are lower-middle on one side and upper-middle on the other, which is exactly how I would have described them if asked. Accounting for US vs Australia differences, that is, since our social support networks are a bit different. I’m doing a lot of thinking.
but yeah you’re totally right.