Debt will always exist in some form or another, because we as a social species always owe something to other people. I mean this in a very material way, not a woowoo way. It’s baked into us to track what’s fair and what we’re “owed,” whether or not money is involved. If it’s 1200 CE and I make good shoes and my neighbor needs a pair, I’ll make her a pair. If she never reciprocates with her homegrown potatoes or taking care of the animals or whatever (i.e. never makes good on her debt), especially if I’ve made her multiple pairs over the years, she goes on my shitlist and probably other people’s shitlists, too.
Obviously that’s different from debt with interest, or for debt incurred for things like medical/education that should be low-cost and/or free. That shit’s horrendous. I just don’t think you can get rid of debt entirely because I genuinely think it’s part of us as a species.
Agreed with brute that making it impossible to sell debt – and especially to sell wackass derivatives with little obvious relation tot he underlying debt – would be sweet af.
Also agreed with rabbitarian that Dunbar’s number presents difficulties for some ways of approaching a non-capitalist society.
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After all, isn’t the first instance of extant historical writing we have literally a record of a commercial transaction/contract?
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I think that may be true, though please don’t quote me on it – I don’t remember if it’s earliest or early, or the precise type of record. Certainly financial records make up a good chunk of some of our earliest records of writing (keeping cuneiform records on clay + fire = nicely baked and preserved tablets).
To build off @diapasoun 's post…I think growth is also a fundamental drive for us (like all life). Maybe we can suppress it for a short time with the right strategies/inventives, but ultimately we want more.
I think we need a Space New Deal. Reasons:
- ultimately gives humanity access to more space/resources
- requires mastering use and reuse of resources (recycling)
- requires mastering building/repair of ecosystems
- insurance for all life against planetary-scale disasters (meteor, super-eruption, pandemic, etc)
- cool factor
I’m not sure what the best way is, but any new system needs a way for us to self organize and accomplish great deeds like this.
Unrelated, it’s usually pretty easy to imagine how we would arrange a society of people like us, our friends… But what about those who think/feel differently? And what to do about jerks that ruin everything? The power hungry, the manipulative, the deviant? I believe the vast majority of people are cooperative, kind, etc. But it only takes a few jerks to ruin a perfectly good time. I believe that more societies have fallen to corruption than any particular economic or political system.
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Thought this was interesting and relevant.
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This is the coolest suggestion I’ve heard yet, and I agree. A new focus for growth that brings a whole host of challenges. When we are finally able to expand beyond the limits of our atmosphere, we might also be leaving good, sustainable practices behind on Earth that were developed in pursuit of that goal, such as the use and reuse.
You’re right, and that will never not be a problem. That’s why I like the small Giving Economy model that the Buy Nothing groups are using, and it’s made me wonder what our society would look like if those values were more widespread.
What if we were teaching more emotional intelligence, gratitude, kindness, effective communication in public schools? What if we felt safe to ask our community for help, and offer help when we have the means? What if our basic needs were already met, such as housing and healthcare, whether that was through government subsidy or some other method?
This is the kind of future I’ve been trying to imagine, and how to get there.
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Very interesting and very relevant!
I’d like to see where this goes and how much they’re able to achieve following this model. I appreciate them giving a breakdown of how the doughnut model works, it’s become such jargon to me that I haven’t been able to properly look at yet.
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I am generally very wary of “let’s take it to the stars” as a way for, well, fixing our shit. Space travel – at least with current technology and knowledge – is massively resource-intensive and doesn’t address fundamental issues like ones that we have been discussing here (equitable distribution of resources, etc) or issues that we haven’t been discussing but are vital to humanity (addressing plant pathogens and crop security in ways that help both people and the planet). We can do a LOT to make space habitable without actually making it worth inhabiting socially, if that makes sense?
(not even getting into issues re: terraforming, that’s a whole nother can of worms and I think out of the scope of this thread)
I’m still a big fan of NASA and want to see space research funded, because I value knowledge and I’d rather we lower our emissions by having people commute less instead of having fewer ISS missions. But generally, I don’t think the Moon or Mars solves the types of problems we’re discussing here.
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I also don’t think space colonization that’s for anyone but the super elite, super smart, or highly selective lottery is coming anytime within the next 3-4 generations. If it comes even that fast. Nothing in this solar system is remotely sustainable without massive resource inputs from Earth without an awful lot of technological progress (if ever possible) and escaping our solar system remains fully science-fiction levels of tech (again if ever possible).
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Keep in mind that they will need laborers. The gold standard of colonization won’t be accessible for everyone, but it won’t just be the wealthy living off-planet.
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Everyone will be NASA-level or slightly below elite education and multi-specialty for redundancy for quite some time in any early colony. With the exception of some sort of super select lottery system maybe…but I don’t think space will be open to ordinary citizens until we understand a whole heckuva lot more about human health in low-g and heavy cosmic radiation environments.
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I’ll maybe tone down the negativity, because I’m a huge sci-fi fan, but there’s a such an enormous amount of technological and biological progress to undergo that it blows my mind.
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To be clear, I don’t forsee a mass colonization effort anytime soon, either. I’m not saying offload half the population to Marsopolis by 2030. I also wasn’t proposing that this goal of itself fixes society, but that a mechanism for Big Goals and public works was necessary. We should have other goals alongside, certainly! What should they be?
I believe that Big Goals focus people, and societies, too. A story seen frequently in the personal finance world: a person lives paycheck to paycheck getting takeout and Target throw pillows weekly until they see an inspiring story about paying off student loans, buying a house, FI, going back to school, etc. With a big savings goal, they start to spend more mindfully, discover Buy Nothing and thrift stores, start cooking at home and drinking less, etc. Although the goal is financial, they are producing less waste and maybe improving health habits, too. Their goal is a focus.
You see that in societies, too. Sadly, that goal is often war. Victory gardens to beat the Nazis! Recycle the metal to beat the Nazis! Universal childcare to beat the Nazis! Well, what if we picked a different, better goal we could all work toward? One that in 1 generation, gave us a tenuous foothold, and ultimately (in 10 generations? 20?) might give us more room to grow? And in 1000 generations, might ensure our survival?
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I get ya! Makes me think of this post. I don’t think we’re at the level of international collective effort to beat the Fermi paradox yet but if you think about all the cool shit that came out of the moon race I think you’re on to something 
His interview series with Elon Musk about the importance of Mars colonization gets into this as well. Good reading if you’ve not encountered it before, though he is definitely a Musk fanboy in a way I am not (based on what I’ve heard about how he treats workers, his SEC violations, etc.).
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I 5000% agree with this.
I would love to see victory gardens and recycle the metal to beat climate change. Alas, that one seems to not have good uptake.
I’m not sure how you frame “a just and environmentally sound society” in a way that excites people. If someone knows, dear lord, please do it.
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